6 ms·

Sig Sauer P320, a popular handgun with police, is firing on its own

20 points by martey 3y ago

pinewurst 3y ago
https://archive.ph/EHHcw https://archive.ph/EHHcw
no-s 3y ago
I stressed over this and finally gave in and got a P365, which I tore down and measured various things to assure it wasn’t as naughty as a P320. I wouldn’t even carry (EDC) a nice Glock which some PD reverted to, because of the unfortunate possibility of inadvertent discharge when re-holstering. For the P320 there was no real visibility of the risk from a slight trigger movement - for the Glock you know anything that moves the trigger safety opens the envelope.
- QuarterReptile 3y ago
  Where do you go to read up on this?
  - lemcoe9 3y ago
    Product reviews, trigger specifications, and such. It really is just a matter of personal preference. Firearms like Glocks don't have "active safeties" where you enable/disable them with a lever, but they do have a variety of "inactive safeties" which prevent the firearm from discharging when dropped/rattled/whatever.
    - no-s 3y ago
      > Firearms like Glocks don't have "active safeties" gosh, there’s always some argument about the defn of “safety” when discussing Glock. A Glock trigger has a little spring-loaded tab which is depressed when you hold your finger on the trigger. When it is visible the Glock can not fire. This they call a “safety”, seems a little sketch but ok, I get the point. There’s some other internal features backing it up, but the trigger is most obvious. The P320 had an internal lock-out widget that would disengage when you pull the trigger a wee bit and a spring loaded sear (? do they call it that for strikers?) one trivial whack away from releasing even if the trigger was not pulled to the break (the expected release point). I would call that absurdly wrong. The upgrade fixed this similarly to the P365. The P365 has a similar lock-out widget to the P320 (they call it an internal safety in the manual), but it doesn’t disengage until the trigger is pulled into the break. The “striker” has a tab on it which is blocked to that point by the widget. You can disassemble it all and measure the distances the parts move to release, but I actually looked at a SolidWorks 3d model someone in the aftermarket industry shared with me and verified my pistol had the same dimensions at a critical point. I think if the striker tab or the widget broke it could fail silently. I check it about weekly or less.
jacobgorm 3y ago
The worst part is the stigma surrounding misfires, with some people even losing their jobs. Danish military is also using this gun in the no-safety version, and have had several misfires. The blame always goes on the users, never the gun.
- digitalengineer 3y ago
  If I'm not mistaking some Sig P320 models come without a safety switch. However, one could, you know, not keep a round in the chamber, especially if there is no safety switch... So yeah, the users does carry some of the blame.
  - dolni 3y ago
    You should probably read up on why carrying a gun without a round in the chamber is silly.
    - giraffe_lady 3y ago
      Are you expecting to get into a quick draw shootout at the walgreens or what.
      - Rebelgecko 3y ago
        Yes. Especially considering that many of the people carrying these are first responders. https://www.kmov.com/2023/03/18/shooting-florissant-walgreens-leaves-1-injured/?outputType=amp https://www.kmov.com/2023/03/18/shooting-florissant-walgreen... https://www.fox13memphis.com/news/teenager-injured-following-shooting-at-walgreens-police-say/article_642051ba-24ac-5e79-940a-7c5fd306f922.html https://www.fox13memphis.com/news/teenager-injured-following... https://www.wdsu.com/article/two-people-dead-in-shooting-near-walgreens-in-gentilly-1674256558/42597641 https://www.wdsu.com/article/two-people-dead-in-shooting-nea... https://www.ksdk.com/amp/article/news/crime/fatal-shooting-lafayette-avenue-saint-louis/63-94756f2e-2cb3-46b2-9e95-ca34d91efb4c https://www.ksdk.com/amp/article/news/crime/fatal-shooting-l... https://www.11alive.com/amp/article/news/crime/person-of-interest-walgreens-peachtree-st-se-shooting/85-c3f30cc1-6692-46b7-a067-b7fc846f4eb2 https://www.11alive.com/amp/article/news/crime/person-of-int... https://www.nbclosangeles.com/news/security-guard-walgreens-hollywood-shooting-murder-charge/168761/?amp=1 https://www.nbclosangeles.com/news/security-guard-walgreens-...
4wsn 3y ago
For what is self-labelled as an investigation, there's very little technical information. At the very least (in my limitedly qualified opinion) the main factor should be identified; were all the holsters in the reported incidents leather? The only acknowledgement of the topic is brief. > as it might be in a warped holster or when a finger or object inadvertently brushes the trigger from its side. > He added that accidental discharges can be caused by improper ammunition, worn holsters or foreign objects working their ways into the trigger guards. If this occurred also with plastic holsters, then I'd be concerned. But, unsurprisingly, WP decided to not provide this basic information. If they're all leather, yes. The holster is a critical part of the weapon system. If you're using a leather holster it has a far more limited lifespan than, say, a leather wallet. RTFM.
slowhand09 3y ago
WP is WP. They interviewed me once about firearms. They either misquoted or misunderstood everything we spoke about.
- Rebelgecko 3y ago
  My favorite WaPo article about guns was the one a few years ago where they talked about the dangers of assault weapons that shoot high powered silenceable sniper rounds like the Ruger 10/22. If a .22 is considered high power I'd love to know what they classify as low/medium.
Havoc 3y ago
Reminds me of the smoking/cancer playbook. Dodge, deny & deflect no matter how obvious it is that there is a real problem >No regulatory body has the power to investigate alleged defects or impose a mandatory recall of guns. Whoever came up with that idea should probably be shot (intentionally)
- stonegray 3y ago
  If this is an actual problem, it’s not obvious to me. The fact that nobody’s been able to replicate this without pulling the trigger is concerning. Having two redundant internal safety systems fail, and mysteriously fire seems so considerably less plausible than negligent discharge that I think anecdotal evidence isn’t enough.
  - Havoc 3y ago
    >The fact that nobody’s been able to replicate this without pulling the trigger is concerning. That's what SIG is claiming. Yet lower in the article: >A video released in August that year by a Texas gun store showed the gun firing consistently when dropped at certain angles. The impact caused the trigger to depress, the video showed. Assuming negligence on an individual cases makes sense. Happens. When you've got a cluster of reports centered around one specific model and there is evidence of said model firing without trigger being pressed...that's a lot of smoke to be insisting there can't be a fire
whoiscroberts 3y ago
Glock 43X

20 points by martey 3y ago

https://archive.ph/EHHcw https://archive.ph/EHHcw

no-s 3y ago

I stressed over this and finally gave in and got a P365, which I tore down and measured various things to assure it wasn’t as naughty as a P320. I wouldn’t even carry (EDC) a nice Glock which some PD reverted to, because of the unfortunate possibility of inadvertent discharge when re-holstering. For the P320 there was no real visibility of the risk from a slight trigger movement - for the Glock you know anything that moves the trigger safety opens the envelope.

QuarterReptile 3y ago
Where do you go to read up on this?
- lemcoe9 3y ago
  Product reviews, trigger specifications, and such. It really is just a matter of personal preference. Firearms like Glocks don't have "active safeties" where you enable/disable them with a lever, but they do have a variety of "inactive safeties" which prevent the firearm from discharging when dropped/rattled/whatever.
  - no-s 3y ago
    > Firearms like Glocks don't have "active safeties" gosh, there’s always some argument about the defn of “safety” when discussing Glock. A Glock trigger has a little spring-loaded tab which is depressed when you hold your finger on the trigger. When it is visible the Glock can not fire. This they call a “safety”, seems a little sketch but ok, I get the point. There’s some other internal features backing it up, but the trigger is most obvious. The P320 had an internal lock-out widget that would disengage when you pull the trigger a wee bit and a spring loaded sear (? do they call it that for strikers?) one trivial whack away from releasing even if the trigger was not pulled to the break (the expected release point). I would call that absurdly wrong. The upgrade fixed this similarly to the P365. The P365 has a similar lock-out widget to the P320 (they call it an internal safety in the manual), but it doesn’t disengage until the trigger is pulled into the break. The “striker” has a tab on it which is blocked to that point by the widget. You can disassemble it all and measure the distances the parts move to release, but I actually looked at a SolidWorks 3d model someone in the aftermarket industry shared with me and verified my pistol had the same dimensions at a critical point. I think if the striker tab or the widget broke it could fail silently. I check it about weekly or less.

jacobgorm 3y ago

The worst part is the stigma surrounding misfires, with some people even losing their jobs. Danish military is also using this gun in the no-safety version, and have had several misfires. The blame always goes on the users, never the gun.

digitalengineer 3y ago
If I'm not mistaking some Sig P320 models come without a safety switch. However, one could, you know, not keep a round in the chamber, especially if there is no safety switch... So yeah, the users does carry some of the blame.
- dolni 3y ago
  You should probably read up on why carrying a gun without a round in the chamber is silly.
  - giraffe_lady 3y ago
    Are you expecting to get into a quick draw shootout at the walgreens or what.
    - Rebelgecko 3y ago
      Yes. Especially considering that many of the people carrying these are first responders. https://www.kmov.com/2023/03/18/shooting-florissant-walgreens-leaves-1-injured/?outputType=amp https://www.kmov.com/2023/03/18/shooting-florissant-walgreen... https://www.fox13memphis.com/news/teenager-injured-following-shooting-at-walgreens-police-say/article_642051ba-24ac-5e79-940a-7c5fd306f922.html https://www.fox13memphis.com/news/teenager-injured-following... https://www.wdsu.com/article/two-people-dead-in-shooting-near-walgreens-in-gentilly-1674256558/42597641 https://www.wdsu.com/article/two-people-dead-in-shooting-nea... https://www.ksdk.com/amp/article/news/crime/fatal-shooting-lafayette-avenue-saint-louis/63-94756f2e-2cb3-46b2-9e95-ca34d91efb4c https://www.ksdk.com/amp/article/news/crime/fatal-shooting-l... https://www.11alive.com/amp/article/news/crime/person-of-interest-walgreens-peachtree-st-se-shooting/85-c3f30cc1-6692-46b7-a067-b7fc846f4eb2 https://www.11alive.com/amp/article/news/crime/person-of-int... https://www.nbclosangeles.com/news/security-guard-walgreens-hollywood-shooting-murder-charge/168761/?amp=1 https://www.nbclosangeles.com/news/security-guard-walgreens-...

4wsn 3y ago

For what is self-labelled as an investigation, there's very little technical information. At the very least (in my limitedly qualified opinion) the main factor should be identified; were all the holsters in the reported incidents leather? The only acknowledgement of the topic is brief. > as it might be in a warped holster or when a finger or object inadvertently brushes the trigger from its side. > He added that accidental discharges can be caused by improper ammunition, worn holsters or foreign objects working their ways into the trigger guards. If this occurred also with plastic holsters, then I'd be concerned. But, unsurprisingly, WP decided to not provide this basic information. If they're all leather, yes. The holster is a critical part of the weapon system. If you're using a leather holster it has a far more limited lifespan than, say, a leather wallet. RTFM.

slowhand09 3y ago

WP is WP. They interviewed me once about firearms. They either misquoted or misunderstood everything we spoke about.

Rebelgecko 3y ago
My favorite WaPo article about guns was the one a few years ago where they talked about the dangers of assault weapons that shoot high powered silenceable sniper rounds like the Ruger 10/22. If a .22 is considered high power I'd love to know what they classify as low/medium.

Havoc 3y ago

Reminds me of the smoking/cancer playbook. Dodge, deny & deflect no matter how obvious it is that there is a real problem >No regulatory body has the power to investigate alleged defects or impose a mandatory recall of guns. Whoever came up with that idea should probably be shot (intentionally)

stonegray 3y ago
If this is an actual problem, it’s not obvious to me. The fact that nobody’s been able to replicate this without pulling the trigger is concerning. Having two redundant internal safety systems fail, and mysteriously fire seems so considerably less plausible than negligent discharge that I think anecdotal evidence isn’t enough.
- Havoc 3y ago
  >The fact that nobody’s been able to replicate this without pulling the trigger is concerning. That's what SIG is claiming. Yet lower in the article: >A video released in August that year by a Texas gun store showed the gun firing consistently when dropped at certain angles. The impact caused the trigger to depress, the video showed. Assuming negligence on an individual cases makes sense. Happens. When you've got a cluster of reports centered around one specific model and there is evidence of said model firing without trigger being pressed...that's a lot of smoke to be insisting there can't be a fire

whoiscroberts 3y ago

Glock 43X