15 ms·

> In a perfect world, health experts say they'd like everyone would get the more expensive polio shot which is incapable of mutating into a dangerous, circulati

by code51 3y ago

> In a perfect world, health experts say they'd like everyone would get the more expensive polio shot which is incapable of mutating into a dangerous, circulating virus. but then... > Mass immunization campaigns with the more expensive yet safer injectable vaccine, he says, are nearly impossible in some of these places. There simply isn't the infrastructure or trained medical staff to carry out such campaigns. So, let's try to understand this: if we throw a boatload of money onto this problem, is it possible to eradicate polio using that decent, more expensive vaccine? or... do we have a theoretical misunderstanding of viruses? If I'm not mistaken both IPV and OPV is applied to children in national immunization problems of developed countries. So there must be something still missing in IPV.

makomk 3y ago
As far as I know, OPV isn't used in childhood immunization programs in developed countries any more, but it used to be and I think every successful polio eradication program in countries where it's no longer endemic relied on it. There's also some evidence that the inactivated vaccine isn't so good at preventing polio from multiplying in people's guts and spreading to others. Is this a problem in practice? There's probably not any way to know for sure. Also, since polio spreads via the oral-fecal route it's obviously going to spread more effectively in developing countries with poor sewage treatment, so what works in the developed world may not work so well elsewhere anyway.
- throwway120385 3y ago
  This would seem to suggest that it's not a problem with the vaccine but with the level of sanitation. The one big relevant difference here is that in developed countries we had flush toilets and sewer systems carrying effluent away from the populace, which may not be true in places that still have polio. So OPV could work but doesn't not because it's ineffective but because the polio-rich effluent produced by vaccinated people isn't being carried away from them effectively. So maybe the best way to eradicate polio is to build sewers and septic systems.
di4na 3y ago
The problem is that money would not be enough. Training people to the level they can inject it would still take incompressible time.
- sn0wf1re 3y ago
  Is time really the bottleneck? Those easy injectors that are used for epipens can be used by anyone. Perhaps there is an option for something like that.
  - btilly 3y ago
    The problem isn't that it takes a lot of skill to inject someone. The problem is that it takes a lot of community outreach and organization to have people actually show up for a schedule of 4 shots at different ages. https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vpd/polio/public/index.html https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vpd/polio/public/index.html gives the US schedule, four shots at, "2 months old, 4 months old, 6 through 18 months old, and 4 through 6 years old." We do a LOT to make sure that people have taken those vaccines. Including checking that you have when you enroll in school.
  - echelon 3y ago
    It the required temperature ranges. Keeping something on ice is much easier than storing at a precise temperature range and not freezing it. The oral polio vaccine (OPV) ---------------------------- Contains live, attenuated virus Should be frozen. If thawed but still cold--below 8 C (46 F)--refreeze immediately. Place in freezer on arrival. If thawed and warm--above 8 C (46 F) [1] Maintain continuously in the frozen state--14 C (7 F) or lower. The vaccine may be refrozen. A maximum of 10 freeze-thaw cycles are permissible provided the total cumulative duration of thaw does not exceed 24 hours, and provided the temperature does not exceed 8 C (46 F) during the period of thaw. [1] Vaccine in liquid state in unopened dispettes may be used for up to 30 days provided it has been stored at 2 -8 C (35 -46 F). A maximum of 10 freeze- thaw cycles are permissible provided the total cumulative duration of thaw does not exceed 24 hours and provided the temperature does not exceed 8 C (46 F) during the period of thaw. [1] Cost of $0.11 - $0.20 per dose. [2] Inactivated Poliovirus Vaccine (IPV) ------------------------------------ Refrigerate immediately on arrival. Store at 2 -8 C (35 -46 F). Do not freeze. [1] Should not be frozen. Refrigerate on arrival. [1] Shelf Life after Reconstitution, Thawing, or Opening - Ampoule: Discard if not used immediately. Vial: Until outdated, if not contaminated. [1] Cost of $1.50 - $3.79 per dose [3] ----- [1] https://wonder.cdc.gov/wonder/prevguid/p0000075/p0000075.asp https://wonder.cdc.gov/wonder/prevguid/p0000075/p0000075.asp [2] https://www.unicef.org/supply/documents/oral-polio-vaccine-opv-price-data https://www.unicef.org/supply/documents/oral-polio-vaccine-o... [3] https://www.unicef.org/supply/documents/inactivated-polio-vaccine-ipv-price-data https://www.unicef.org/supply/documents/inactivated-polio-va...
est31 3y ago
OPV is only applied in developing countries, where setting up an infrastructure with syringes and refrigeration is way harder. IPV is better in all ways, but OPV still is better than nothing at all, even if it can sometimes mutate back to the wild variant and cause polio... this only occurs however if you are not fully vaccinating the population, as only non-vaccinated children can get infected. https://polioeradication.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/GPEI-cVDPV-Fact-Sheet-20191115.pdf https://polioeradication.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/GPEI...
- btilly 3y ago
  No, IPV is NOT better in all ways. And your link verifies that fact. Specifically IPV only protects you from serious illness. OPV stops transmission. Therefore where polio is endemic, you need to supply OPV to end transmission. Once polio is no longer endemic, IPV guarantees protection without the additional risks that OPV brings to those around who are immunocompromised or not immunized.
  - est31 3y ago
    Fair points, I stand corrected.
phkahler 3y ago
>> So, let's try to understand this: if we throw a boatload of money onto this problem, is it possible to eradicate polio using that decent, more expensive vaccine? I think the answer might be - let's spend another boatload of money to develop an even better (oral) vaccine that can be distributed to those areas and not cause cases. It may seem a waste to create a new vaccine when the disease is almost gone, but so what? If Bill Gates can use his fortune to end Polio, I'll forgive him for unleashing Windows on the world ;-) OTOH if it makes a comeback that would mean all the money spent so far was for nothing.
btilly 3y ago
Scientists do not have a theoretical misunderstanding of viruses. But the general public often does. If you gave everyone IPV, anyone who is not immunocompromised will be protected from severe cases of polio. Yay! But polio can still circulate and be looking for new victims. It is hard to tell how big a problem this is until you stop vaccinating. When people get OPV, it stops them from being part of polio circulation, but can also START polio circulating. Therefore it is needed to stop transmission, but you don't want it if there is no transmission in the community. We already eradicated 2 forms of polio. But the question is whether we can realistically eliminate the last.
danielfoster 3y ago
Not quite. In many of the regions cited it would not be safe to enter and provide the training, let alone the infrastructure for the clinics. Even if staff receive training, they may not stay on the job long or may not receive refresher training. Visit rural Africa and you will understand.

by code51 3y ago

makomk 3y ago

As far as I know, OPV isn't used in childhood immunization programs in developed countries any more, but it used to be and I think every successful polio eradication program in countries where it's no longer endemic relied on it. There's also some evidence that the inactivated vaccine isn't so good at preventing polio from multiplying in people's guts and spreading to others. Is this a problem in practice? There's probably not any way to know for sure. Also, since polio spreads via the oral-fecal route it's obviously going to spread more effectively in developing countries with poor sewage treatment, so what works in the developed world may not work so well elsewhere anyway.

throwway120385 3y ago
This would seem to suggest that it's not a problem with the vaccine but with the level of sanitation. The one big relevant difference here is that in developed countries we had flush toilets and sewer systems carrying effluent away from the populace, which may not be true in places that still have polio. So OPV could work but doesn't not because it's ineffective but because the polio-rich effluent produced by vaccinated people isn't being carried away from them effectively. So maybe the best way to eradicate polio is to build sewers and septic systems.

di4na 3y ago

The problem is that money would not be enough. Training people to the level they can inject it would still take incompressible time.

sn0wf1re 3y ago
Is time really the bottleneck? Those easy injectors that are used for epipens can be used by anyone. Perhaps there is an option for something like that.
- btilly 3y ago
  The problem isn't that it takes a lot of skill to inject someone. The problem is that it takes a lot of community outreach and organization to have people actually show up for a schedule of 4 shots at different ages. https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vpd/polio/public/index.html https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vpd/polio/public/index.html gives the US schedule, four shots at, "2 months old, 4 months old, 6 through 18 months old, and 4 through 6 years old." We do a LOT to make sure that people have taken those vaccines. Including checking that you have when you enroll in school.
- echelon 3y ago
  It the required temperature ranges. Keeping something on ice is much easier than storing at a precise temperature range and not freezing it. The oral polio vaccine (OPV) ---------------------------- Contains live, attenuated virus Should be frozen. If thawed but still cold--below 8 C (46 F)--refreeze immediately. Place in freezer on arrival. If thawed and warm--above 8 C (46 F) [1] Maintain continuously in the frozen state--14 C (7 F) or lower. The vaccine may be refrozen. A maximum of 10 freeze-thaw cycles are permissible provided the total cumulative duration of thaw does not exceed 24 hours, and provided the temperature does not exceed 8 C (46 F) during the period of thaw. [1] Vaccine in liquid state in unopened dispettes may be used for up to 30 days provided it has been stored at 2 -8 C (35 -46 F). A maximum of 10 freeze- thaw cycles are permissible provided the total cumulative duration of thaw does not exceed 24 hours and provided the temperature does not exceed 8 C (46 F) during the period of thaw. [1] Cost of $0.11 - $0.20 per dose. [2] Inactivated Poliovirus Vaccine (IPV) ------------------------------------ Refrigerate immediately on arrival. Store at 2 -8 C (35 -46 F). Do not freeze. [1] Should not be frozen. Refrigerate on arrival. [1] Shelf Life after Reconstitution, Thawing, or Opening - Ampoule: Discard if not used immediately. Vial: Until outdated, if not contaminated. [1] Cost of $1.50 - $3.79 per dose [3] ----- [1] https://wonder.cdc.gov/wonder/prevguid/p0000075/p0000075.asp https://wonder.cdc.gov/wonder/prevguid/p0000075/p0000075.asp [2] https://www.unicef.org/supply/documents/oral-polio-vaccine-opv-price-data https://www.unicef.org/supply/documents/oral-polio-vaccine-o... [3] https://www.unicef.org/supply/documents/inactivated-polio-vaccine-ipv-price-data https://www.unicef.org/supply/documents/inactivated-polio-va...

est31 3y ago

OPV is only applied in developing countries, where setting up an infrastructure with syringes and refrigeration is way harder. IPV is better in all ways, but OPV still is better than nothing at all, even if it can sometimes mutate back to the wild variant and cause polio... this only occurs however if you are not fully vaccinating the population, as only non-vaccinated children can get infected. https://polioeradication.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/GPEI-cVDPV-Fact-Sheet-20191115.pdf https://polioeradication.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/GPEI...

btilly 3y ago
No, IPV is NOT better in all ways. And your link verifies that fact. Specifically IPV only protects you from serious illness. OPV stops transmission. Therefore where polio is endemic, you need to supply OPV to end transmission. Once polio is no longer endemic, IPV guarantees protection without the additional risks that OPV brings to those around who are immunocompromised or not immunized.
- est31 3y ago
  Fair points, I stand corrected.

phkahler 3y ago

>> So, let's try to understand this: if we throw a boatload of money onto this problem, is it possible to eradicate polio using that decent, more expensive vaccine? I think the answer might be - let's spend another boatload of money to develop an even better (oral) vaccine that can be distributed to those areas and not cause cases. It may seem a waste to create a new vaccine when the disease is almost gone, but so what? If Bill Gates can use his fortune to end Polio, I'll forgive him for unleashing Windows on the world ;-) OTOH if it makes a comeback that would mean all the money spent so far was for nothing.

btilly 3y ago

Scientists do not have a theoretical misunderstanding of viruses. But the general public often does. If you gave everyone IPV, anyone who is not immunocompromised will be protected from severe cases of polio. Yay! But polio can still circulate and be looking for new victims. It is hard to tell how big a problem this is until you stop vaccinating. When people get OPV, it stops them from being part of polio circulation, but can also START polio circulating. Therefore it is needed to stop transmission, but you don't want it if there is no transmission in the community. We already eradicated 2 forms of polio. But the question is whether we can realistically eliminate the last.

danielfoster 3y ago

Not quite. In many of the regions cited it would not be safe to enter and provide the training, let alone the infrastructure for the clinics. Even if staff receive training, they may not stay on the job long or may not receive refresher training. Visit rural Africa and you will understand.