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If Octopuses could evolve human intelligence and society in just a few generations, then why wouldn’t they have done so in the hundreds of millions of years bef

If Octopuses could evolve human intelligence and society in just a few generations, then why wouldn’t they have done so in the hundreds of millions of years before? Hint: they must have

jetbalsa 4y ago
There is a sci-fi book that covered this a little, its the Children of Time series, rather good look into a "uplift" virus going wrong. (used in Children of Ruin, the second in the series on Octopuses)
ninjanomnom 4y ago
One of the longest lived octopus species we know of has a lifespan of about 5 years, even if they were more intelligent than humans they'd have a hard time establishing a society only being able to establish 5 years worth of knowledge per individual. Let's make longevity treatments for octopi and see if they learn enough to make/join society.
- ljlolel 4y ago
  Airplane with bullet holes meme. Think it through: If a long lived social octopus species regularly evolved and made civilization that collapsed its species, then the only similar species left would be one that is absurdly solitary and absurdly short lived. Think about it. Evolution is counterintuitive.
- maegul 4y ago
  I’d even go so far as to say that human civilisation struggles with the longevity of humans. We’re rather short lived compared to the impacts our actions can have, as a technologically enabled and socially civilised species. Life really is short. If our lifespan were twice or ten times longer, the whole thing would be a different ballgame.
  - tiborsaas 4y ago
    At least it's long enough for us to recognize it and use it as a source of ambition to make the most of it. I've recently turned 40 and I have a mild panic that I haven't done anything worthy, but there's still time ahead.
    - pvaldes 4y ago
      > I haven't done anything worthy, Keeping yourself alive for 40 years. Not a minor victory.
      - tiborsaas 4y ago
        Indeed, by 1850s standards, I'm doing a great job :D
pvaldes 4y ago
That if-then logic block is broken Octopuses will never be able to evolve anything similar to an human societies. To start because they are fiercely solitary and glad to jump to cannibal behavior at the first opportunity. Is a non-social species that will not cooperate with other individuals. This is not a question of how much time you put in the mix. They are a different animal that wants different things than us.
- shagymoe 4y ago
  >they are fiercely solitary and glad to jump to cannibal behavior at the first opportunity You could probably say similar things about early humans.
  - pvaldes 4y ago
    I wouldn't expect that. Primates cooperate all the time with birds, rodents and deer for food or protection. We are brain-wired to search for allies inter and intraspecific. Early humans would most probably do the same. Cephalopods, on the other side, had never been reported cooperating with other species. We still don't know a lot about many species of course so that could change, but even the squids that are strongly gregarious do it in a lose "save yourself" way.
- ljlolel 4y ago
  Airplane with bullet holes meme. Think it through: If a long lived social octopus species regularly evolved and made civilization that collapsed its species, then the only similar species left would be one that is absurdly solitary and absurdly short lived. Think about it. Evolution is counterintuitive.
pyinstallwoes 4y ago
https://www.sciencealert.com/marine-biologists-discover-an-underwater-octopus-city-octlantis-jervis-bay-australia https://www.sciencealert.com/marine-biologists-discover-an-u...

If Octopuses could evolve human intelligence and society in just a few generations, then why wouldn’t they have done so in the hundreds of millions of years before? Hint: they must have

jetbalsa 4y ago

There is a sci-fi book that covered this a little, its the Children of Time series, rather good look into a "uplift" virus going wrong. (used in Children of Ruin, the second in the series on Octopuses)

ninjanomnom 4y ago

One of the longest lived octopus species we know of has a lifespan of about 5 years, even if they were more intelligent than humans they'd have a hard time establishing a society only being able to establish 5 years worth of knowledge per individual. Let's make longevity treatments for octopi and see if they learn enough to make/join society.

ljlolel 4y ago
Airplane with bullet holes meme. Think it through: If a long lived social octopus species regularly evolved and made civilization that collapsed its species, then the only similar species left would be one that is absurdly solitary and absurdly short lived. Think about it. Evolution is counterintuitive.
maegul 4y ago
I’d even go so far as to say that human civilisation struggles with the longevity of humans. We’re rather short lived compared to the impacts our actions can have, as a technologically enabled and socially civilised species. Life really is short. If our lifespan were twice or ten times longer, the whole thing would be a different ballgame.
- tiborsaas 4y ago
  At least it's long enough for us to recognize it and use it as a source of ambition to make the most of it. I've recently turned 40 and I have a mild panic that I haven't done anything worthy, but there's still time ahead.
  - pvaldes 4y ago
    > I haven't done anything worthy, Keeping yourself alive for 40 years. Not a minor victory.
    - tiborsaas 4y ago
      Indeed, by 1850s standards, I'm doing a great job :D

pvaldes 4y ago

That if-then logic block is broken Octopuses will never be able to evolve anything similar to an human societies. To start because they are fiercely solitary and glad to jump to cannibal behavior at the first opportunity. Is a non-social species that will not cooperate with other individuals. This is not a question of how much time you put in the mix. They are a different animal that wants different things than us.

shagymoe 4y ago
>they are fiercely solitary and glad to jump to cannibal behavior at the first opportunity You could probably say similar things about early humans.
- pvaldes 4y ago
  I wouldn't expect that. Primates cooperate all the time with birds, rodents and deer for food or protection. We are brain-wired to search for allies inter and intraspecific. Early humans would most probably do the same. Cephalopods, on the other side, had never been reported cooperating with other species. We still don't know a lot about many species of course so that could change, but even the squids that are strongly gregarious do it in a lose "save yourself" way.
ljlolel 4y ago
Airplane with bullet holes meme. Think it through: If a long lived social octopus species regularly evolved and made civilization that collapsed its species, then the only similar species left would be one that is absurdly solitary and absurdly short lived. Think about it. Evolution is counterintuitive.

pyinstallwoes 4y ago

https://www.sciencealert.com/marine-biologists-discover-an-underwater-octopus-city-octlantis-jervis-bay-australia https://www.sciencealert.com/marine-biologists-discover-an-u...