4 ms·

> Homeless people turn down shelters because shelters aren't homes, and are often legitimately worse than being outside. I keep hearing that homeless avoid she

by bnralt 4y ago

> Homeless people turn down shelters because shelters aren't homes, and are often legitimately worse than being outside. I keep hearing that homeless avoid shelters because of how dangerous the people are there[1]. And that’s a legitimate point. But then people completely wipe that point from their memory when they say “Just move these people to apartments, there will be no problem.” If other homeless are saying that many of these individuals are too dangerous to be around, we shouldn’t be surprised if people who live in apartments feel the same way. [1] https://www.npr.org/2012/12/06/166666265/why-some-homeless-choose-the-streets-over-shelters https://www.npr.org/2012/12/06/166666265/why-some-homeless-c...

neon_electro 4y ago
"...that shelters are dangerous places, that they're full of drugs and drug dealers, that people will steal your shoes, and there's bedbugs and body lice." From your [1]. The reasoning is that dangerous people exist in homeless shelters NOT because those people are homeless, but because people can exist who want to take advantage of homeless people, whether those people are homeless themselves or not. Your conclusion that homeless people living in apartments can cause the same reaction based on their previous homelessness and no other quality isn't a logical one.
freeone3000 4y ago
Apartments have doors that lock and walls that isolate. That is the point. Shelters do not.
kerkeslager 4y ago
> I keep hearing that homeless avoid shelters because of how dangerous the people are there[1]. Well, I didn't say that. That's part of the problem but it's not the whole problem. In the interview you quoted, the word "dangerous" is used once: PIRTLE: Part of the reason was, you know, the paranoia and the fear of large groups of people that comes along with schizophrenia, but part of the reason was, and I think this is more generally the case with people, is that you hear a lot of terrible things about shelters, that shelters are dangerous places, that they're full of drugs and drug dealers, that people will steal your shoes, and there's bedbugs and body lice. And yeah, unfortunately a lot of those things are true. It's a bit of a stretch to call that evidence of your position, but I'll grant the point and move on I guess. The interview also says: PIRTLE: Oh yes, there's - I don't want to say that all shelters are like that. There's a lot of very good shelters in this country. But there are a lot of big warehouses that are just places where we stick people at night and we really don't have any regard for how they live there. ...and: PIRTLE: I spent most of my time homeless out on the street. It wasn't until the very end of my homelessness that I ended up in a shelter. And I found out that a lot of what I was afraid of was true. I never found out what a body louse was until I got into the shelter. You know, I had my shoes stolen, just like people said you get your shoes stolen, although I will say that there were three people in the shelter who offered to give me a pair of shoes after that happened. So there is a sense of community there. I don't want to give the impression that everyone in the shelter is bad. But you have a lot of people with a lot of problems, and so when you cram them all together, you just have one big problem. That's why I'm a big fan of smaller, scattered-sized shelters, where people can get more focus on what they need to get help. Note that the "danger" here isn't "you're going to get murdered", it's theft--a predictable consequence of not having any place to store your personal belongings when you can't actively protect them. And then there's this part which bears reiterating: But you have a lot of people with a lot of problems, and so when you cram them all together, you just have one big problem. Do you see why maybe putting people into apartments might actually be a partial solution to this problem? And you'll note, I'm not actually saying we put them in apartments right next to pre-existing tenants. My actual suggestion would be to build new housing, and repurpose or rebuild unused office and retail space. There's clearly a shortage of housing, and that shortage is being maintained because it serves to inflate housing prices, making a few people rich. If there's anything there should be an excess of, it's basic needs like homes. So it starts to sound like you're responding to a straw man argument I didn't make, based on an interview that you read very selectively.
- bnralt 4y ago
  > In the interview you quoted, the word "dangerous" is used once: If you're familiar with the situation, you know that homeless frequently talk about the dangerous nature of shelters as a reason why they don't want to stay there. I hope that any discussion about the issue would at least be aware of that. The article I picked was just the first one that come up on Google in case people were new to the situation and didn't know much about it, but there are plenty of others you can find with even a quick search: > Likewise, respondents said they found it hard to coexist with others battling mental health issues at the shelters and that it sometimes led to issues such as fights, which made others feel unsafe.[1]. ** > But shelter beds seldom keep pace with need. And some people, like Carver, avoid shelters even when they are available. They say they feel unsafe and uncomfortable in the shelters, or they impose rules they can’t follow.[2] ** > They refuse to go back because they feel unsafe in them. Whether due to mere paranoia caused by an individual's unfortunate battle with mental illness or is a legitimate take on the reality of the conditions within the homeless shelter itself, the feeling of unsafety is as real as it gets. Some individuals site witnessing violence, drug solicitation, or theft as reasons it is unsafe to stay.[3] __________________ > And you'll note, I'm not actually saying we put them in apartments right next to pre-existing tenants. That's the way it is being implemented cities trying the "housing first" approach, though, and with predictable results (long time residents having to move as there's a sharp increase in crime and violence in the building). [1] https://www.desmoinesregister.com/story/news/local/des-moines/2023/01/18/des-moines-homeless-iowa-shelters-study-housing-solutions/69814146007/ https://www.desmoinesregister.com/story/news/local/des-moine... [2] https://www.theguardian.com/society/2022/nov/02/unhoused-people-shelters-homelessness-to-jail-cycle https://www.theguardian.com/society/2022/nov/02/unhoused-peo... [3] https://caufsociety.com/why-the-homeless-refuse-help/ https://caufsociety.com/why-the-homeless-refuse-help/
  - kerkeslager 4y ago
    > If you're familiar with the situation, you know that homeless frequently talk about the dangerous nature of shelters as a reason why they don't want to stay there. If you're familiar with the post you're responding to, you know that I didn't disagree with that. How many times are you going to continue accusing me of this straw man argument? I've already told you that's not what I'm disagreeing with. You go on to quote a bunch of support for my assertion that shelters aren't homes. People herded into warehouses like cattle and forced into close proximity with no privacy get into fights? Why is that surprising to anyone? > > And you'll note, I'm not actually saying we put them in apartments right next to pre-existing tenants. > That's the way it is being implemented cities trying the "housing first" approach, though, and with predictable results (long time residents having to move as there's a sharp increase in crime and violence in the building). There are a bunch of reasons why that's happening: among them a refusal to re-purpose office and retail spaces which would be farther from existing residential areas, and intentional poor implementations of these programs by political interests so they can say they don't work. Failures of a poor implementation vaguely related to what I'm actually suggesting, aren't actually criticisms of my suggestion.
watwut 4y ago
That was not original point. Also actual issues are that you are often kicked off for a day with all your possessions. You can not be there during afternoon. You can not left your crap there. Other frequent issue is that you can not lock your stuff. I dont live with homeless, but if I had to stay with dozens of non-homeless strangers I would still felt the need to lock somehow most important possessions.

by bnralt 4y ago

neon_electro 4y ago

"...that shelters are dangerous places, that they're full of drugs and drug dealers, that people will steal your shoes, and there's bedbugs and body lice." From your [1]. The reasoning is that dangerous people exist in homeless shelters NOT because those people are homeless, but because people can exist who want to take advantage of homeless people, whether those people are homeless themselves or not. Your conclusion that homeless people living in apartments can cause the same reaction based on their previous homelessness and no other quality isn't a logical one.

freeone3000 4y ago

Apartments have doors that lock and walls that isolate. That is the point. Shelters do not.

kerkeslager 4y ago

> I keep hearing that homeless avoid shelters because of how dangerous the people are there[1]. Well, I didn't say that. That's part of the problem but it's not the whole problem. In the interview you quoted, the word "dangerous" is used once: PIRTLE: Part of the reason was, you know, the paranoia and the fear of large groups of people that comes along with schizophrenia, but part of the reason was, and I think this is more generally the case with people, is that you hear a lot of terrible things about shelters, that shelters are dangerous places, that they're full of drugs and drug dealers, that people will steal your shoes, and there's bedbugs and body lice. And yeah, unfortunately a lot of those things are true. It's a bit of a stretch to call that evidence of your position, but I'll grant the point and move on I guess. The interview also says: PIRTLE: Oh yes, there's - I don't want to say that all shelters are like that. There's a lot of very good shelters in this country. But there are a lot of big warehouses that are just places where we stick people at night and we really don't have any regard for how they live there. ...and: PIRTLE: I spent most of my time homeless out on the street. It wasn't until the very end of my homelessness that I ended up in a shelter. And I found out that a lot of what I was afraid of was true. I never found out what a body louse was until I got into the shelter. You know, I had my shoes stolen, just like people said you get your shoes stolen, although I will say that there were three people in the shelter who offered to give me a pair of shoes after that happened. So there is a sense of community there. I don't want to give the impression that everyone in the shelter is bad. But you have a lot of people with a lot of problems, and so when you cram them all together, you just have one big problem. That's why I'm a big fan of smaller, scattered-sized shelters, where people can get more focus on what they need to get help. Note that the "danger" here isn't "you're going to get murdered", it's theft--a predictable consequence of not having any place to store your personal belongings when you can't actively protect them. And then there's this part which bears reiterating: But you have a lot of people with a lot of problems, and so when you cram them all together, you just have one big problem. Do you see why maybe putting people into apartments might actually be a partial solution to this problem? And you'll note, I'm not actually saying we put them in apartments right next to pre-existing tenants. My actual suggestion would be to build new housing, and repurpose or rebuild unused office and retail space. There's clearly a shortage of housing, and that shortage is being maintained because it serves to inflate housing prices, making a few people rich. If there's anything there should be an excess of, it's basic needs like homes. So it starts to sound like you're responding to a straw man argument I didn't make, based on an interview that you read very selectively.

bnralt 4y ago
> In the interview you quoted, the word "dangerous" is used once: If you're familiar with the situation, you know that homeless frequently talk about the dangerous nature of shelters as a reason why they don't want to stay there. I hope that any discussion about the issue would at least be aware of that. The article I picked was just the first one that come up on Google in case people were new to the situation and didn't know much about it, but there are plenty of others you can find with even a quick search: > Likewise, respondents said they found it hard to coexist with others battling mental health issues at the shelters and that it sometimes led to issues such as fights, which made others feel unsafe.[1]. ** > But shelter beds seldom keep pace with need. And some people, like Carver, avoid shelters even when they are available. They say they feel unsafe and uncomfortable in the shelters, or they impose rules they can’t follow.[2] ** > They refuse to go back because they feel unsafe in them. Whether due to mere paranoia caused by an individual's unfortunate battle with mental illness or is a legitimate take on the reality of the conditions within the homeless shelter itself, the feeling of unsafety is as real as it gets. Some individuals site witnessing violence, drug solicitation, or theft as reasons it is unsafe to stay.[3] __________________ > And you'll note, I'm not actually saying we put them in apartments right next to pre-existing tenants. That's the way it is being implemented cities trying the "housing first" approach, though, and with predictable results (long time residents having to move as there's a sharp increase in crime and violence in the building). [1] https://www.desmoinesregister.com/story/news/local/des-moines/2023/01/18/des-moines-homeless-iowa-shelters-study-housing-solutions/69814146007/ https://www.desmoinesregister.com/story/news/local/des-moine... [2] https://www.theguardian.com/society/2022/nov/02/unhoused-people-shelters-homelessness-to-jail-cycle https://www.theguardian.com/society/2022/nov/02/unhoused-peo... [3] https://caufsociety.com/why-the-homeless-refuse-help/ https://caufsociety.com/why-the-homeless-refuse-help/
- kerkeslager 4y ago
  > If you're familiar with the situation, you know that homeless frequently talk about the dangerous nature of shelters as a reason why they don't want to stay there. If you're familiar with the post you're responding to, you know that I didn't disagree with that. How many times are you going to continue accusing me of this straw man argument? I've already told you that's not what I'm disagreeing with. You go on to quote a bunch of support for my assertion that shelters aren't homes. People herded into warehouses like cattle and forced into close proximity with no privacy get into fights? Why is that surprising to anyone? > > And you'll note, I'm not actually saying we put them in apartments right next to pre-existing tenants. > That's the way it is being implemented cities trying the "housing first" approach, though, and with predictable results (long time residents having to move as there's a sharp increase in crime and violence in the building). There are a bunch of reasons why that's happening: among them a refusal to re-purpose office and retail spaces which would be farther from existing residential areas, and intentional poor implementations of these programs by political interests so they can say they don't work. Failures of a poor implementation vaguely related to what I'm actually suggesting, aren't actually criticisms of my suggestion.

watwut 4y ago

That was not original point. Also actual issues are that you are often kicked off for a day with all your possessions. You can not be there during afternoon. You can not left your crap there. Other frequent issue is that you can not lock your stuff. I dont live with homeless, but if I had to stay with dozens of non-homeless strangers I would still felt the need to lock somehow most important possessions.