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Or maybe to have well behaved kids you just have to give them a good beating now and then? Just saying - I don't mean to advise beating kids (I would never do

by Tichy 15y ago

Or maybe to have well behaved kids you just have to give them a good beating now and then? Just saying - I don't mean to advise beating kids (I would never do it, and it is also illegal where I live), but to point out that below the surface, not everything is necessarily what it seems to be. These articles advising strictness towards kids pop up with steady frequency... They might benefit the parents more than the kids. Funny how it is portrait as being advantageous for the kid to leave them crying in the night, so "they can learn to fall asleep again". Or maybe they just got some emotional scars, but hey, they can sleep. I took the opposite approach with my kid (16 months) - we always rushed to his bed side when he was crying. He did not sleep through the night from day one, but in general, he is very pleasant company. We wanted to give him confidence and I think so far it has worked. He doesn't need to terrorize us because he knows in general we treat him fairly.

gbog 15y ago
> we treat him fairly What do you mean here? Your kid is not a neighbor you would have to treat fairly our not, he or she is your own blood, you love your kid, you don't treat them. That's a part of American education problem, kids are like clients, with rights and all.
- Tichy 15y ago
  I am not American. Also not a native speaker, didn't know how to describe it better. What I mean is we take good care of him, so he doesn't need to protest all the time. Why should he wake up screaming in the night if there is no issue? So either there is an issue, in which case he screams, we appear and try to fix it. Or there is no issue, in which case he also doesn't scream. It is no fight or power game, as with the "let them scream" school of parenting. Of course he is only 16 months now, so I can not really make that many claims about the effectiveness of our parenting... Also kids just may be different, but I didn't see the french woman take that many samples, either (did she check the French suburbs, I hear there is a lot of troubled youth around). Also, of course kids have rights.
  - gbog 15y ago
    Well I think you are wrong in thinking babies don't cry without a reason. Crying is a normal activity for kids. If the belly is full, the diaper clean and there no sign of other discomfort, then I think letting cry is an option. Happy parents is the best gift you can give to you kids, and stress, sleep deprivation, guilt, etc, are not the way to be happy.
    - Tichy 15y ago
      It's true what you say about the happy parents, and probably you can't generalize to all kids. They are all different. However, I also had a feeling that since the baby is totally dependent on me (he could not even turn on his belly in the first weeks), it was asked too much for him to entertain himself. Why do I get to decide what is enough for him (well fed and diapers cleaned has to be sufficient)? He could not even change his view without my help. This is just a very personal thing, though, everybody will feel different. On a related note, I just read a book about sleep research and one experiment they did was exposing people to extreme boredom. That is they were made to lie in a bed for days and not even allowed to read or anything - so their situation is quite similar to those helpless babies. Turns out they would settle into a 4h sleep pattern, similar to babies.
      - gbog 15y ago
        I wouldn't say it is about boredom and entertainment, your kid is in the survival stage, fill basic needs, stay close to caregivers, etc. So, in fact, the crying had a function when we were apes in the Savannah, it was to call the mother in case she lost you. Now this need is deprecated, and the babie will have to be separated someday from parents, so letting cry for 5, then 10, then 20 minutes is a good compromise, imo better than teaching early your kid that whatever they want is easily obtained through loug crying.
        Tichy 15y ago
        Babies need more than just food and warm clothes. And they are dependent on you for a long time. I don't see the point in weaning them off things when they are still too young to provide them for themselves. For example, they can't just log on to Hacker News when they feel bored. Crying might be the equivalent to typing "news.ycombinator.com" into your URL bar. Is it really so bad to take care of your babies' needs?
- hetman 15y ago
  That love manifests in your treatment. Having moved to the west at a young age from Eastern Europe, the contrast in attitudes has often struck me. Over there you appreciate the level of sacrifice your parents made to make your existence possible, everything they give you is a gift. Over here it almost seems like the child automatically deserves the world from their parents for the great injustice of having been born. Now I'm not saying parents west and east are different in wanting to give their child the very best they can. It's the attitude of entitlement towards what is given that differs and I still struggle to grasp the western perspective. Apologies up front since I don't think I was able to capture my thoughts on this topic with a great deal of eloquence here.
- nasmorn 15y ago
  Imagine I had a girlfriend from Moldavia totally dependent on me for money and her visa so I could do almost anything to her short of harming her physically just like with a baby. Because she didnt grow up with our material culture she has problems with shopping too much. I want to teach her to better restrain herself so I lock her upin the apartment when I go to work. Of course she screams when I leave but soon she learns how to comfort herself and when I get home she is normal again. Next time she goes out she has learned her lessen, I mustbe a great boyfriend. I dont understand why positions of power are seen so different just because the weaker party is ones offspring.
forcefsck 15y ago
Kids must experience all kinds of feelings to learn to cope with them. If you always run whenever your kid cries, it will never learn to deal with things alone and it will cry far more often. Also, I believe that your approach is the more convenient to the parent, because you don't have to deal with guilt about possibly leaving emotional scars to their kid. But in fact you're just spoiling it and do bad for its health. Sleeping the whole night, at least for 6 continues hours, is very important for kids from half to 2 yo for their proper/healthy development. The night cry mentioned in the article is just a specific example, it doesn't make much sense to come to a conclusion based only on how you delt with this particular case.
- Tichy 15y ago
  It worked for us because he doesn't cry a lot, counter to your theory. Also, can you back up your claims? Of course I am aware that he will eventually have to deal with tough things alone. However, it is not obvious that he should have to do so as a helpless baby. Honestly, I am a bit shocked that you can be so convinced of a potentially evil theory. I would be very interested in your sources. The theory to "experience a lot of tough things to become tougher" also sounds rather backwards to me. How far should we go? Should we give him a short lived pet so that he can learn to deal with death? Should we beat him, so that he is prepared for school yard bullies? Suppose you try climbing a tree for the first time. Is it really easier if daddy is not standing there prepared to catch you if you fall? Would it make you more inclined to try climbing the tree if daddy wasn't there?
  - forcefsck 15y ago
    My kid is in the autism spectrum and we have seen 3 doctors, 2 psychiatrists, 3 ergo-therapists and 2 logo-therapists. They all seem to agree that when a kid cries with no reason (you learn how to distinct that by experience) you just ignore him until he learns that this is not the way to get attention. It's not that we never give him attention, we just don't overdo it so he won't become manipulative. They've also advised us that night sleep must be complete, as I mentioned in my previous post. That we should not encourage him to wake up by letting him getting up or giving him food, and it worked. When he has 6 months old, we switched the night milk with water or tee and after a few nights he stopped waking up in the middle of the night. Since then, me and my wife can get some sleep at nights and some rest instead of being wrecked every day. As far as where is the limit, how far to go? You don't have to go anywhere, you just have to use some common sense, if it has a real problem rush to help it, when it doesn't have a real problem don't encourage it. Yes, be there the first time it will try to climb the tree, but not every time it gets into its mind that it wants to climb a tree. Of course you don't have to start beating it. Duh! I'm a little shocked myself that you find it normal to wake up every night for 16 months. How else do I know that I'm right? I see other people's kids. When parents rush to serve every vice their kids have just to avoid the crying, the end is that their kids cry all the time and they are never satisfied with anything. Parents that set limits and don't continuously run behind their children, not only have some time left to enjoy their life, but their kids are more polite, they are easier satisfied and happy, and they also make friends easier, since they are not obnoxious. You say your kid is fine anyway, don't know you-can't confirm it, maybe it's an exception to the general rule, which is if you let crying to be a bargaining card, the kid will cry all the time. Maybe in your country there is no sane parent left for you to see the difference, maybe you should plan some vacation time in France.

by Tichy 15y ago

gbog 15y ago

> we treat him fairly What do you mean here? Your kid is not a neighbor you would have to treat fairly our not, he or she is your own blood, you love your kid, you don't treat them. That's a part of American education problem, kids are like clients, with rights and all.

Tichy 15y ago
I am not American. Also not a native speaker, didn't know how to describe it better. What I mean is we take good care of him, so he doesn't need to protest all the time. Why should he wake up screaming in the night if there is no issue? So either there is an issue, in which case he screams, we appear and try to fix it. Or there is no issue, in which case he also doesn't scream. It is no fight or power game, as with the "let them scream" school of parenting. Of course he is only 16 months now, so I can not really make that many claims about the effectiveness of our parenting... Also kids just may be different, but I didn't see the french woman take that many samples, either (did she check the French suburbs, I hear there is a lot of troubled youth around). Also, of course kids have rights.
- gbog 15y ago
  Well I think you are wrong in thinking babies don't cry without a reason. Crying is a normal activity for kids. If the belly is full, the diaper clean and there no sign of other discomfort, then I think letting cry is an option. Happy parents is the best gift you can give to you kids, and stress, sleep deprivation, guilt, etc, are not the way to be happy.
  - Tichy 15y ago
    It's true what you say about the happy parents, and probably you can't generalize to all kids. They are all different. However, I also had a feeling that since the baby is totally dependent on me (he could not even turn on his belly in the first weeks), it was asked too much for him to entertain himself. Why do I get to decide what is enough for him (well fed and diapers cleaned has to be sufficient)? He could not even change his view without my help. This is just a very personal thing, though, everybody will feel different. On a related note, I just read a book about sleep research and one experiment they did was exposing people to extreme boredom. That is they were made to lie in a bed for days and not even allowed to read or anything - so their situation is quite similar to those helpless babies. Turns out they would settle into a 4h sleep pattern, similar to babies.
    - gbog 15y ago
      I wouldn't say it is about boredom and entertainment, your kid is in the survival stage, fill basic needs, stay close to caregivers, etc. So, in fact, the crying had a function when we were apes in the Savannah, it was to call the mother in case she lost you. Now this need is deprecated, and the babie will have to be separated someday from parents, so letting cry for 5, then 10, then 20 minutes is a good compromise, imo better than teaching early your kid that whatever they want is easily obtained through loug crying.
      - Tichy 15y ago
        Babies need more than just food and warm clothes. And they are dependent on you for a long time. I don't see the point in weaning them off things when they are still too young to provide them for themselves. For example, they can't just log on to Hacker News when they feel bored. Crying might be the equivalent to typing "news.ycombinator.com" into your URL bar. Is it really so bad to take care of your babies' needs?
hetman 15y ago
That love manifests in your treatment. Having moved to the west at a young age from Eastern Europe, the contrast in attitudes has often struck me. Over there you appreciate the level of sacrifice your parents made to make your existence possible, everything they give you is a gift. Over here it almost seems like the child automatically deserves the world from their parents for the great injustice of having been born. Now I'm not saying parents west and east are different in wanting to give their child the very best they can. It's the attitude of entitlement towards what is given that differs and I still struggle to grasp the western perspective. Apologies up front since I don't think I was able to capture my thoughts on this topic with a great deal of eloquence here.
nasmorn 15y ago
Imagine I had a girlfriend from Moldavia totally dependent on me for money and her visa so I could do almost anything to her short of harming her physically just like with a baby. Because she didnt grow up with our material culture she has problems with shopping too much. I want to teach her to better restrain herself so I lock her upin the apartment when I go to work. Of course she screams when I leave but soon she learns how to comfort herself and when I get home she is normal again. Next time she goes out she has learned her lessen, I mustbe a great boyfriend. I dont understand why positions of power are seen so different just because the weaker party is ones offspring.

forcefsck 15y ago

Kids must experience all kinds of feelings to learn to cope with them. If you always run whenever your kid cries, it will never learn to deal with things alone and it will cry far more often. Also, I believe that your approach is the more convenient to the parent, because you don't have to deal with guilt about possibly leaving emotional scars to their kid. But in fact you're just spoiling it and do bad for its health. Sleeping the whole night, at least for 6 continues hours, is very important for kids from half to 2 yo for their proper/healthy development. The night cry mentioned in the article is just a specific example, it doesn't make much sense to come to a conclusion based only on how you delt with this particular case.

Tichy 15y ago
It worked for us because he doesn't cry a lot, counter to your theory. Also, can you back up your claims? Of course I am aware that he will eventually have to deal with tough things alone. However, it is not obvious that he should have to do so as a helpless baby. Honestly, I am a bit shocked that you can be so convinced of a potentially evil theory. I would be very interested in your sources. The theory to "experience a lot of tough things to become tougher" also sounds rather backwards to me. How far should we go? Should we give him a short lived pet so that he can learn to deal with death? Should we beat him, so that he is prepared for school yard bullies? Suppose you try climbing a tree for the first time. Is it really easier if daddy is not standing there prepared to catch you if you fall? Would it make you more inclined to try climbing the tree if daddy wasn't there?
- forcefsck 15y ago
  My kid is in the autism spectrum and we have seen 3 doctors, 2 psychiatrists, 3 ergo-therapists and 2 logo-therapists. They all seem to agree that when a kid cries with no reason (you learn how to distinct that by experience) you just ignore him until he learns that this is not the way to get attention. It's not that we never give him attention, we just don't overdo it so he won't become manipulative. They've also advised us that night sleep must be complete, as I mentioned in my previous post. That we should not encourage him to wake up by letting him getting up or giving him food, and it worked. When he has 6 months old, we switched the night milk with water or tee and after a few nights he stopped waking up in the middle of the night. Since then, me and my wife can get some sleep at nights and some rest instead of being wrecked every day. As far as where is the limit, how far to go? You don't have to go anywhere, you just have to use some common sense, if it has a real problem rush to help it, when it doesn't have a real problem don't encourage it. Yes, be there the first time it will try to climb the tree, but not every time it gets into its mind that it wants to climb a tree. Of course you don't have to start beating it. Duh! I'm a little shocked myself that you find it normal to wake up every night for 16 months. How else do I know that I'm right? I see other people's kids. When parents rush to serve every vice their kids have just to avoid the crying, the end is that their kids cry all the time and they are never satisfied with anything. Parents that set limits and don't continuously run behind their children, not only have some time left to enjoy their life, but their kids are more polite, they are easier satisfied and happy, and they also make friends easier, since they are not obnoxious. You say your kid is fine anyway, don't know you-can't confirm it, maybe it's an exception to the general rule, which is if you let crying to be a bargaining card, the kid will cry all the time. Maybe in your country there is no sane parent left for you to see the difference, maybe you should plan some vacation time in France.