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In extreme cases mental illness manifests in violent behaviour, suicidal behaviour, etc. Most of us, including those of us with mental illness (which is effect

by throwaway22032 4y ago

In extreme cases mental illness manifests in violent behaviour, suicidal behaviour, etc. Most of us, including those of us with mental illness (which is effectively everyone to some degree), don't want to live in a society in which antisocial individuals are permitted to "refuse" to be treated. Their victims do not have that same privilege.

bolanyo 4y ago
How do you know that 'most of us' feel that way? I definitely do want to live in such a society.
- throwaway22032 4y ago
  The rule of law, and non-elective incarceration for violent behaviour, are about as old as time itself. You can remove the laws if you like, societies will simply begin self-organizing around removing antisocial elements (or removing themselves from the situation e.g. downtown decay).
  - habinero 4y ago
    I just want to point out that we have several people in this thread talking about the blatant tyranny of being asked to wear a small face covering... ...while simultaneously advocating for the state to imprison and forcibly medicate others. It's also interesting that you value "a nice downtown" more than "liberty".
    - throwaway22032 4y ago
      On the one hand, we have a perfectly functioning member of society being forced to wear a mask, when they don't even have a disease, for the sake of overly-anxious individuals. On the other, we have someone who might decide to live in a random place in a tent, shit in the street, swing bricks in socks around on the trains etc. I'm far more worried about the degenerates on my route from the train station than I ever was about coronavirus.
      - vkou 4y ago
        > I'm far more worried about the degenerates on my route from the train station than I ever was about coronavirus. And I'm personally far more worried about the 'degenerates' who might get my immunocompromised grandfather sick, than the people I meet on my way to the bus stop. You probably would be too, if you were sick, or lived in a 'better neighbourhood', or were better at analyzing long-tail risk[1]. Unlike the people refusing to vaccinate, he doesn't have a choice in his condition. He gets to live with the selfish, ignorant decisions made by others. [1] Contagious, preventable diseases maim and kill vastly more people every year than <mentally ill people who are refusing to take meds>[2], but for some reason, you're more scared of the latter than the former. [2] The solution to them is a pinprick, and sometimes a day of discomfort. The solution to mental illness is often a lifetime of meds that make you either want to crawl out of your skin, or feel utterly dead on the inside, or be completely disembodied, or just plain make you suicidal. There's a good reason people refuse medication for their issues. There's no good reason for why people refuse to get vaccinated.
        throwaway22032 4y ago
        No-one is proposing that all mentally ill people (effectively all people) are forcibly medicated. Only those that are an acute danger to themselves and others, degrading the world around them on a non-statistical basis. The alternative is to imprison them. You are engaging in a strawman here.
      - habinero 4y ago
        Valuing a nice walk over human freedom, autonomy and dignity sure is an interesting choice for a person who claims to be moral.
        throwaway22032 4y ago
        Dignity sure is an interesting choice of word to use to describe people who live under bridges.
vkou 4y ago
> Most of us, including those of us with mental illness (which is effectively everyone to some degree), don't want to live in a society in which antisocial individuals are permitted to "refuse" to be treated. Their victims do not have that same privilege. You're making an excellent case for mandatory vaccinations.
- throwaway22032 4y ago
  In the case of mandatory vaccinations, the victims are few whereas the requirement is placed on many. In the case of acute mental illness, the victims are many whereas the requirement is placed on few. The situations are not comparable. I think a more reasonable analogue would be that I am making the case for mandatory isolation for sick individuals.
  - vkou 4y ago
    > In the case of mandatory vaccinations, the victims are few whereas the requirement is placed on many. > In the case of acute mental illness, the victims are many whereas the requirement is placed on few. No. Mentally ill people harm far fewer people than preventable infectious diseases do. COVID killed over a million people in the US in three years, and seriously injured many, many more. How many deaths can you attribute to mentally ill people, that you'd like to forcibly treat in that time? A few dozen? A few hundred? And the 'requirement' is far more onerous and invasive in the latter case. If mental illness could be cured with two shots and a day of discomfort, you might have a leg to stand on. It can't be, which is why mandating treatment is rife with abuses, and obvious moral and medical problems. > The situations are not comparable. They aren't comparable because the ROI of mandating vaccinations is much better than the ROI of mandating mental health treatment.
    - throwaway22032 4y ago
      There's about as much logic in what you're saying as "we lock up criminals, therefore we should require everyone to be vaccinated". Regardless of the merits of vaccination, it's nonsensical to make this sort of analogy, and I have better things to do than engage with this.

bolanyo 4y ago

How do you know that 'most of us' feel that way? I definitely do want to live in such a society.

throwaway22032 4y ago
The rule of law, and non-elective incarceration for violent behaviour, are about as old as time itself. You can remove the laws if you like, societies will simply begin self-organizing around removing antisocial elements (or removing themselves from the situation e.g. downtown decay).
- habinero 4y ago
  I just want to point out that we have several people in this thread talking about the blatant tyranny of being asked to wear a small face covering... ...while simultaneously advocating for the state to imprison and forcibly medicate others. It's also interesting that you value "a nice downtown" more than "liberty".
  - throwaway22032 4y ago
    On the one hand, we have a perfectly functioning member of society being forced to wear a mask, when they don't even have a disease, for the sake of overly-anxious individuals. On the other, we have someone who might decide to live in a random place in a tent, shit in the street, swing bricks in socks around on the trains etc. I'm far more worried about the degenerates on my route from the train station than I ever was about coronavirus.
    - vkou 4y ago
      > I'm far more worried about the degenerates on my route from the train station than I ever was about coronavirus. And I'm personally far more worried about the 'degenerates' who might get my immunocompromised grandfather sick, than the people I meet on my way to the bus stop. You probably would be too, if you were sick, or lived in a 'better neighbourhood', or were better at analyzing long-tail risk[1]. Unlike the people refusing to vaccinate, he doesn't have a choice in his condition. He gets to live with the selfish, ignorant decisions made by others. [1] Contagious, preventable diseases maim and kill vastly more people every year than <mentally ill people who are refusing to take meds>[2], but for some reason, you're more scared of the latter than the former. [2] The solution to them is a pinprick, and sometimes a day of discomfort. The solution to mental illness is often a lifetime of meds that make you either want to crawl out of your skin, or feel utterly dead on the inside, or be completely disembodied, or just plain make you suicidal. There's a good reason people refuse medication for their issues. There's no good reason for why people refuse to get vaccinated.
      - throwaway22032 4y ago
        No-one is proposing that all mentally ill people (effectively all people) are forcibly medicated. Only those that are an acute danger to themselves and others, degrading the world around them on a non-statistical basis. The alternative is to imprison them. You are engaging in a strawman here.
    - habinero 4y ago
      Valuing a nice walk over human freedom, autonomy and dignity sure is an interesting choice for a person who claims to be moral.
      - throwaway22032 4y ago
        Dignity sure is an interesting choice of word to use to describe people who live under bridges.

vkou 4y ago

> Most of us, including those of us with mental illness (which is effectively everyone to some degree), don't want to live in a society in which antisocial individuals are permitted to "refuse" to be treated. Their victims do not have that same privilege. You're making an excellent case for mandatory vaccinations.

throwaway22032 4y ago
In the case of mandatory vaccinations, the victims are few whereas the requirement is placed on many. In the case of acute mental illness, the victims are many whereas the requirement is placed on few. The situations are not comparable. I think a more reasonable analogue would be that I am making the case for mandatory isolation for sick individuals.
- vkou 4y ago
  > In the case of mandatory vaccinations, the victims are few whereas the requirement is placed on many. > In the case of acute mental illness, the victims are many whereas the requirement is placed on few. No. Mentally ill people harm far fewer people than preventable infectious diseases do. COVID killed over a million people in the US in three years, and seriously injured many, many more. How many deaths can you attribute to mentally ill people, that you'd like to forcibly treat in that time? A few dozen? A few hundred? And the 'requirement' is far more onerous and invasive in the latter case. If mental illness could be cured with two shots and a day of discomfort, you might have a leg to stand on. It can't be, which is why mandating treatment is rife with abuses, and obvious moral and medical problems. > The situations are not comparable. They aren't comparable because the ROI of mandating vaccinations is much better than the ROI of mandating mental health treatment.
  - throwaway22032 4y ago
    There's about as much logic in what you're saying as "we lock up criminals, therefore we should require everyone to be vaccinated". Regardless of the merits of vaccination, it's nonsensical to make this sort of analogy, and I have better things to do than engage with this.