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> Michael’s friends and family and his supporters at Yale had thought intelligence could save him, allow him to transcend the terrible disease that was causing

> Michael’s friends and family and his supporters at Yale had thought intelligence could save him, allow him to transcend the terrible disease that was causing his mind to detach from reality. This is such a bad misunderstanding of how schizophrenia works… intelligence does not help if the underlying hardware powering it breaks at a fundamental level.

tokai 4y ago
Premorbid IQ do predicted social function after the first schizophrenic episode. Here's some random papers, there are many more out there: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0924933815000723 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S092493381... https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0920996408003812 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S092099640... https://www.nature.com/articles/npjschz201543 https://www.nature.com/articles/npjschz201543
- qikInNdOutReply 4y ago
  https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Forbes_Nash_Jr https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Forbes_Nash_Jr. I would argue quite High IQ, still got nowhere regarding normal life due to the problem most of his adult life. Was kept on campus out of respect for his archivements. Finally returned to a state of being able to use his IQ with high age. The intelligence can do nothing once the hardware goes, except weave more elaborate conspiracies and paranoid fantasys.
  - tokai 4y ago
    I don't get your point. Nash outcome was very very good. He stayed out of hospitals and didn't take his medicine, after his initial stints with hospitalisation. >The intelligence can do nothing once the hardware goes, except weave more elaborate conspiracies and paranoid fantasys Why do you write this when I post evidence of the opposite? Do at least have some kind of backing to your statement.
    - qikInNdOutReply 4y ago
      Nashes work declined greatly with the full onset of the sickness and never fully recovered.
      - tokai 4y ago
        That your only work declined is a very good outcome for an illness with as bad outcomes as schizophrenia. Like if you shattered both your legs, but ended up walking again while not able to compete in the olympics 100 meter sprint, would be a good outcome.
    - PurpleRamen 4y ago
      The linked german wikipedia descibe Nash's illness quite different from the english wikipedia. With the german article being less specific about the illness and outcome. Though, both are somewhat clear that the illness took him 20+ years of his life, which might be not a good proof for high IQ helps with mental illness.
      - tokai 4y ago
        I wouldn't know, the link is dead. edit: No his outcome was good. He didn't die from it, he didn't spend his life locked up. It's absolutely ridiculous to argue the effect of IQ on outcomes from this one example tho. I posted several studies, that between them cites numerous studies, all based on data collected on 1000s of persons. A German wiki articles angle on Nash's illness is seriously a waste of everyone's time.
        PurpleRamen 4y ago
        The url has a dot at the end, which is missing in the link.
  - retrac 4y ago
    Schizophrenia is not an all or nothing. It's not like one resistor fries and suddenly they're hearing voices completely indistinguishable from reality. Some people have partial or even significant insight into their illness. That is to say, they are aware and appreciate that their thinking is disordered, or that the voices are actually internal, and they have coping methods. Some methods of coping like reality testing seem like they can be taught, and it does seem likely to me that having a lot of general intelligence would make such a thing more effective.
    - kayodelycaon 4y ago
      From my experience (and those on a bipolar discord server) coping mechanisms can definitely be taught. Most of them are rather simple in concept but almost all of them are absolutely exhausting to use. Trying to work full time while using coping mechanisms had me sitting in a chair, unable to function, after 5pm. I serious started to ask myself if living was worth living if that was all there was to it.
- kayodelycaon 4y ago
  From personal experience, intelligence helps with self-awareness and finding strategies for dealing with mental illness. It does not help control it. Once psychosis take hold, it’s in the driver’s seat. I can be fully aware I’m trying to hurt someone and know that it’s wrong and be unable to stop myself from acting on my delusions. It feels like I’m outside my body, watching it do things I have no control over.
fortran77 4y ago
Isn’t that a one of the points of this article, that intelligence didn’t save him?
- kayodelycaon 4y ago
  It does. It’s a very long (and very good) read. Most people aren’t going to finish it in time to comment. So I decided to start the discussion early for everyone else. :)

tokai 4y ago

Premorbid IQ do predicted social function after the first schizophrenic episode. Here's some random papers, there are many more out there: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0924933815000723 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S092493381... https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0920996408003812 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S092099640... https://www.nature.com/articles/npjschz201543 https://www.nature.com/articles/npjschz201543

qikInNdOutReply 4y ago
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Forbes_Nash_Jr https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Forbes_Nash_Jr. I would argue quite High IQ, still got nowhere regarding normal life due to the problem most of his adult life. Was kept on campus out of respect for his archivements. Finally returned to a state of being able to use his IQ with high age. The intelligence can do nothing once the hardware goes, except weave more elaborate conspiracies and paranoid fantasys.
- tokai 4y ago
  I don't get your point. Nash outcome was very very good. He stayed out of hospitals and didn't take his medicine, after his initial stints with hospitalisation. >The intelligence can do nothing once the hardware goes, except weave more elaborate conspiracies and paranoid fantasys Why do you write this when I post evidence of the opposite? Do at least have some kind of backing to your statement.
  - qikInNdOutReply 4y ago
    Nashes work declined greatly with the full onset of the sickness and never fully recovered.
    - tokai 4y ago
      That your only work declined is a very good outcome for an illness with as bad outcomes as schizophrenia. Like if you shattered both your legs, but ended up walking again while not able to compete in the olympics 100 meter sprint, would be a good outcome.
  - PurpleRamen 4y ago
    The linked german wikipedia descibe Nash's illness quite different from the english wikipedia. With the german article being less specific about the illness and outcome. Though, both are somewhat clear that the illness took him 20+ years of his life, which might be not a good proof for high IQ helps with mental illness.
    - tokai 4y ago
      I wouldn't know, the link is dead. edit: No his outcome was good. He didn't die from it, he didn't spend his life locked up. It's absolutely ridiculous to argue the effect of IQ on outcomes from this one example tho. I posted several studies, that between them cites numerous studies, all based on data collected on 1000s of persons. A German wiki articles angle on Nash's illness is seriously a waste of everyone's time.
      - PurpleRamen 4y ago
        The url has a dot at the end, which is missing in the link.
- retrac 4y ago
  Schizophrenia is not an all or nothing. It's not like one resistor fries and suddenly they're hearing voices completely indistinguishable from reality. Some people have partial or even significant insight into their illness. That is to say, they are aware and appreciate that their thinking is disordered, or that the voices are actually internal, and they have coping methods. Some methods of coping like reality testing seem like they can be taught, and it does seem likely to me that having a lot of general intelligence would make such a thing more effective.
  - kayodelycaon 4y ago
    From my experience (and those on a bipolar discord server) coping mechanisms can definitely be taught. Most of them are rather simple in concept but almost all of them are absolutely exhausting to use. Trying to work full time while using coping mechanisms had me sitting in a chair, unable to function, after 5pm. I serious started to ask myself if living was worth living if that was all there was to it.
kayodelycaon 4y ago
From personal experience, intelligence helps with self-awareness and finding strategies for dealing with mental illness. It does not help control it. Once psychosis take hold, it’s in the driver’s seat. I can be fully aware I’m trying to hurt someone and know that it’s wrong and be unable to stop myself from acting on my delusions. It feels like I’m outside my body, watching it do things I have no control over.

fortran77 4y ago

Isn’t that a one of the points of this article, that intelligence didn’t save him?

kayodelycaon 4y ago
It does. It’s a very long (and very good) read. Most people aren’t going to finish it in time to comment. So I decided to start the discussion early for everyone else. :)