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I started watching [3]. I have no stakes in this, but a lot of stuff I should be enraged about... I'm just not? Doesn't look fundamentally different to Debian o

I started watching [3]. I have no stakes in this, but a lot of stuff I should be enraged about... I'm just not? Doesn't look fundamentally different to Debian or Firefox trademark policies. I guess it is an abrupt change in trademark enforcement for Rust.

jackmott42 4y ago
Just ignoring that it is fundamentally gross and pointless, which some people don't understand somehow, consider the practical implications. I can't casually make a youtube video or blog article teaching about Rust without worrying about trademarks if I use the word. Hundreds of rust libraries have Rust in the name and would be in violation of this policy the second it changed, etc.
- planede 4y ago
  IANAL but it's important to understand what is and isn't enforceable regarding a trademark. I can write about Debian, Firefox and Rust without an explicit disclaimer that I'm not endorsed by their corresponding foundations if it's obvious in context. I can also write about Coca-Cola, Nintendo and Oracle in a similar manner. It doesn't matter what any of the trademark policies say. I wouldn't worry about writing on rust, the language. It certainly sucks that the language, the compiler and the foundation share the same name. But it probably sucks for the foundation as well regarding enforcement. I don't get why people like to put the name "rust" in crate names, unless they write tools that work with the language (linters, auto-formatters), it just feels redundant.
  - ReleaseCandidat 4y ago
    > I don't get why people like to put the name "rust" in crate names, unless they write tools that work with the language (linters, auto-formatters), it just feels redundant. In crate names it is redundant. As a project or domain name it isn't.
  - serial_dev 4y ago
    It feels redundant when you search for it on crates.io/lib.rs, it's not redundant when you search for it or talk about it anywhere else (Google, Twitter, GitHub, real life, events, conferences).
- adolph 4y ago
  > it is fundamentally gross and pointless Crabby may be the word to use
tihal 4y ago
The difference is that the R-word foundation goes above and beyond their (reasonable) interests of protecting their brand/identity. This is not about trying to fend off people impersonating as "Official Rust..." or "Rust Foundation ..." but tries to stop you from even having the _word_ "rust" or "cargo" in your domain name. Also there is some ideology-driven nonsense which is impossible to enforce but that does not stop them from the attempt to treat their community condescendingly like that.
- stusmall 4y ago
  The domain thing is very, very, very normal. From Mozilla's trademark policy: If you want to include all or part of a Mozilla trademark in a domain name, you have to receive written permission from Mozilla. People naturally associate domain names with organizations whose names sound similar. Almost any use of a Mozilla trademark in a domain name is likely to confuse consumers, thus running afoul of the overarching requirement that any use of a Mozilla trademark be non-confusing. If you would like to build a Mozilla, Firefox Internet browser or Thunderbird e-mail client promotional site for your region, we encourage you to join an existing official localization project. From Node Foundation's trademark policy: You need permission to register or use a domain name that contains a Node.js mark in it. Please don’t register a domain that looks or sounds similar to a Node.js or includes a misspelled Node.js mark as that can confuse community users From Debian's trademark policy: You cannot use Debian trademarks in a domain name, with or without commercial intent.
stusmall 4y ago
Yeah, it's such a weird outrage. I went and compared it to the node foundation one and its very similar. Some of the other issues he has are kind of deranged. I'm glad the Foundation want Rust meetups to be firearm free. Good Lord. Is that really worth getting so upset about? I've got a couple small things I don't like, but once again, it seems to be right in line with other open source trademark policies. I just had never looked closely at them before
- zamalek 4y ago
  > I'm glad the Foundation want Rust meetups to be firearm free. Good Lord. Is that really worth getting so upset about? I strongly, STRONGLY, agree with their political stance. However, I find their forcing their politics down people's throats extremely concerning. Keep in mind that you also have to seek approval to use the word Rust (I am not affiliated with the Rust Foundation), which means that they could disallow it merely because they don't like you or what you stand for (which the prior rule shows a tendency to do). Call me crazy, but I fail to see how that's in any way progressive (yes, given even the tolerance paradox) - especially given that the other people and beliefs will be running the Rust Foundation at some point in the future. This isn't a matter of "keep your politics out of tech," it's a matter of bringing in politics being actually harmful to the community. Ending gun violence in America is the responsibility of voters and lawmakers, not the Rust Foundation.
  - stusmall 4y ago
    It's a safety and inclusion thing, not politics. There just isn't a place for firearms at a meetup.
    - zamalek 4y ago
      > inclusion So a "Ferris and Firearms" meetup is simply not allowed to occur. That sounds extremely inclusive. This also implies that organizers would have to go through the effort AND cost (because you are only allowed to collect fees for food and drinks) of doing entry control or a meetup.
cowl 4y ago
Don't look fundamentally different? May I'm missing something but I have not seen a single tutorial or article about something Debian or Firefox that starts that with the disclaimer "This is not affiliated with the official Debian etc" Like the R** Foundation is asking to. Let's not even mention the unreasonables of not being able to name package writen in R** as package-rust.=, somethng that no other programing language forbids as far as I'm aware of.
- planede 4y ago
  Go ahead and write a tutorial about Rust without a disclaimer. This is totally non-enforceable, trademarks can't limit talking about the thing. As long as it's clear that you are not representing them, it's fine, even without a disclaimer as described in their policy. IANAL and this is not legal advise, but I wouldn't sweat about it. This same thing applies to any other trademark too, be it Debian, Firefox, Nintendo or Coca-Cola.

jackmott42 4y ago

Just ignoring that it is fundamentally gross and pointless, which some people don't understand somehow, consider the practical implications. I can't casually make a youtube video or blog article teaching about Rust without worrying about trademarks if I use the word. Hundreds of rust libraries have Rust in the name and would be in violation of this policy the second it changed, etc.

planede 4y ago
IANAL but it's important to understand what is and isn't enforceable regarding a trademark. I can write about Debian, Firefox and Rust without an explicit disclaimer that I'm not endorsed by their corresponding foundations if it's obvious in context. I can also write about Coca-Cola, Nintendo and Oracle in a similar manner. It doesn't matter what any of the trademark policies say. I wouldn't worry about writing on rust, the language. It certainly sucks that the language, the compiler and the foundation share the same name. But it probably sucks for the foundation as well regarding enforcement. I don't get why people like to put the name "rust" in crate names, unless they write tools that work with the language (linters, auto-formatters), it just feels redundant.
- ReleaseCandidat 4y ago
  > I don't get why people like to put the name "rust" in crate names, unless they write tools that work with the language (linters, auto-formatters), it just feels redundant. In crate names it is redundant. As a project or domain name it isn't.
- serial_dev 4y ago
  It feels redundant when you search for it on crates.io/lib.rs, it's not redundant when you search for it or talk about it anywhere else (Google, Twitter, GitHub, real life, events, conferences).
adolph 4y ago
> it is fundamentally gross and pointless Crabby may be the word to use

tihal 4y ago

The difference is that the R-word foundation goes above and beyond their (reasonable) interests of protecting their brand/identity. This is not about trying to fend off people impersonating as "Official Rust..." or "Rust Foundation ..." but tries to stop you from even having the _word_ "rust" or "cargo" in your domain name. Also there is some ideology-driven nonsense which is impossible to enforce but that does not stop them from the attempt to treat their community condescendingly like that.

stusmall 4y ago
The domain thing is very, very, very normal. From Mozilla's trademark policy: If you want to include all or part of a Mozilla trademark in a domain name, you have to receive written permission from Mozilla. People naturally associate domain names with organizations whose names sound similar. Almost any use of a Mozilla trademark in a domain name is likely to confuse consumers, thus running afoul of the overarching requirement that any use of a Mozilla trademark be non-confusing. If you would like to build a Mozilla, Firefox Internet browser or Thunderbird e-mail client promotional site for your region, we encourage you to join an existing official localization project. From Node Foundation's trademark policy: You need permission to register or use a domain name that contains a Node.js mark in it. Please don’t register a domain that looks or sounds similar to a Node.js or includes a misspelled Node.js mark as that can confuse community users From Debian's trademark policy: You cannot use Debian trademarks in a domain name, with or without commercial intent.

stusmall 4y ago

Yeah, it's such a weird outrage. I went and compared it to the node foundation one and its very similar. Some of the other issues he has are kind of deranged. I'm glad the Foundation want Rust meetups to be firearm free. Good Lord. Is that really worth getting so upset about? I've got a couple small things I don't like, but once again, it seems to be right in line with other open source trademark policies. I just had never looked closely at them before

zamalek 4y ago
> I'm glad the Foundation want Rust meetups to be firearm free. Good Lord. Is that really worth getting so upset about? I strongly, STRONGLY, agree with their political stance. However, I find their forcing their politics down people's throats extremely concerning. Keep in mind that you also have to seek approval to use the word Rust (I am not affiliated with the Rust Foundation), which means that they could disallow it merely because they don't like you or what you stand for (which the prior rule shows a tendency to do). Call me crazy, but I fail to see how that's in any way progressive (yes, given even the tolerance paradox) - especially given that the other people and beliefs will be running the Rust Foundation at some point in the future. This isn't a matter of "keep your politics out of tech," it's a matter of bringing in politics being actually harmful to the community. Ending gun violence in America is the responsibility of voters and lawmakers, not the Rust Foundation.
- stusmall 4y ago
  It's a safety and inclusion thing, not politics. There just isn't a place for firearms at a meetup.
  - zamalek 4y ago
    > inclusion So a "Ferris and Firearms" meetup is simply not allowed to occur. That sounds extremely inclusive. This also implies that organizers would have to go through the effort AND cost (because you are only allowed to collect fees for food and drinks) of doing entry control or a meetup.

cowl 4y ago

Don't look fundamentally different? May I'm missing something but I have not seen a single tutorial or article about something Debian or Firefox that starts that with the disclaimer "This is not affiliated with the official Debian etc" Like the R** Foundation is asking to. Let's not even mention the unreasonables of not being able to name package writen in R** as package-rust.=, somethng that no other programing language forbids as far as I'm aware of.

planede 4y ago
Go ahead and write a tutorial about Rust without a disclaimer. This is totally non-enforceable, trademarks can't limit talking about the thing. As long as it's clear that you are not representing them, it's fine, even without a disclaimer as described in their policy. IANAL and this is not legal advise, but I wouldn't sweat about it. This same thing applies to any other trademark too, be it Debian, Firefox, Nintendo or Coca-Cola.