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In the UK we do this as part of status negotiation - the second question anyone asks (after whats your name?) is what do you do? Then we can decide whether we

In the UK we do this as part of status negotiation - the second question anyone asks (after whats your name?) is what do you do? Then we can decide whether we are above or below the other person in the status hierarchy, which is roughly as follows: - Architect - Artist/Designer/Creative - Lawyer/Doctor/Teacher - Executive/Manager - ... - ... - Bar staff - Engineer - Software Engineer - Waiter - Driver - Cleaner

morelikeborelax 4y ago
You forgot brain surgeon. Of course it's not rocket science is it.
- somewhereoutth 4y ago
  Probably with Doctor. An actual scientist might come above Lawyer/Doctor (and below Artist/Designer), but this is a rather recent upwards move, as it became cooler to be smart (note this does not apply to engineers, who are looked down upon by scientists anyway)
  - hotpotamus 4y ago
    It's a reference to a Mitchell and Webb sketch about the status games that people play around employment. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=THNPmhBl-8I https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=THNPmhBl-8I
    - somewhereoutth 4y ago
      Oh I missed the reference! Yes great sketch, and exactly what we are talking about here.
- ry8806 4y ago
  fantastic reference! made me chuckle
Manjuuu 4y ago
Exactly, it's about projecting status for those who think they can.
plaguepilled 4y ago
Architects are above engineers? I think this is a highly subjective list.
- somewhereoutth 4y ago
  > Architects are above engineers? Very much so! More than is possible to describe here. Of course I mean real architects - of buildings and so forth.
- Symbiote 4y ago
  It is status negotiation, and not only is highly subjective but also varies depending on the age, social class and occupation of both people.
  - plaguepilled 4y ago
    This is more or less what I was reaching for, though my attempt was with far less clarity. Thanks for wording it better than I could. The occupation of the participants is an interesting angle. I wonder if it has been studied at any length.
- iLoveOncall 4y ago
  The list is obvious flamebait, just don't fall for it.
  - somewhereoutth 4y ago
    Sadly, it is in fact very real. The difference in how you are treated as an architect vs an engineer [in the UK] is really quite astonishing. And also perhaps with good reason, as an architect you are keeper of the magic and mystery of the 'queen of the arts', whereas as an engineer you are just there to fix the tv/computer/iphone/whatever. As an architect you are part of polite conversation about what the world is/was/could be, whereas as an engineer you would not even get an invite. As an architect your life is (supposedly) parties and beautiful people, as an engineer board game nights and trappist beer (steady now!). Of course the tech boom has upended things somewhat, but, in the the UK at least, we have been managing to keep a lid on that particular nonsense.
FrustratedMonky 4y ago
If this is the emphasis, maybe that is why the empire fell.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
macNchz 4y ago
For what its worth, this is called “occupational prestige” and sociologists run public opinion studies to create actual lists like that: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occupational_prestige https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occupational_prestige
- rufus_foreman 4y ago
  The actual rankings from that list from high prestige to low (there's no software engineer listed, just computer programmer or computer systems analyst): Doctor Lawyer Software Engineer (if you mean "Computer Systems Analysts and Scientists") Teacher (Postsecondary school) Architect Engineer Executive Teacher (Elementary or Secondary Scool) Software Engineer (if you mean "Computer Programmers") Teacher (Kindergarten) Manager Designer Artist Driver Waiter Bartender Cleaner Which gives a clue why you should never call yourself a computer programmer.
paiute 4y ago
Kind of makes me smile. I've been a Software Engineer in the US long enough to see it go from where you placed it in the list to closer to the top. At least where I live now, everyone wants to be a Software Engineer. I suspect that will change in the next couple years during dotcom 2.0 - back to waiter level.
nynx 4y ago
How very droll. Why are engineers considered so lowly?
- somewhereoutth 4y ago
  Unfortunately the heroic age of engineering (Brunel, Bazalgette) is behind us. As it grew in complexity, engineering by necessity became corporatized and de-individualised. It was no longer the place for dashing adventurers and gentlemen intellectuals. Instead it has become associated with 'technicianship', the rather boring (but essential) trade of knowing which button to push to make things start working again. Furthermore, it is one of the last professions to resist gender re-balancing, so social events etc are going to be somewhat barren.
  - bradlys 4y ago
    There are many other professions which have similar gender gaps. They’re not talked about because the professions aren’t growing as fast and don’t make as much money for such relatively low time investment.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
Ekaros 4y ago
- Artist/Designer/Creative How is that not below the Cleaner or the guy who empties septic tanks?

morelikeborelax 4y ago

You forgot brain surgeon. Of course it's not rocket science is it.

somewhereoutth 4y ago
Probably with Doctor. An actual scientist might come above Lawyer/Doctor (and below Artist/Designer), but this is a rather recent upwards move, as it became cooler to be smart (note this does not apply to engineers, who are looked down upon by scientists anyway)
- hotpotamus 4y ago
  It's a reference to a Mitchell and Webb sketch about the status games that people play around employment. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=THNPmhBl-8I https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=THNPmhBl-8I
  - somewhereoutth 4y ago
    Oh I missed the reference! Yes great sketch, and exactly what we are talking about here.
ry8806 4y ago
fantastic reference! made me chuckle

Manjuuu 4y ago

Exactly, it's about projecting status for those who think they can.

plaguepilled 4y ago

Architects are above engineers? I think this is a highly subjective list.

somewhereoutth 4y ago
> Architects are above engineers? Very much so! More than is possible to describe here. Of course I mean real architects - of buildings and so forth.
Symbiote 4y ago
It is status negotiation, and not only is highly subjective but also varies depending on the age, social class and occupation of both people.
- plaguepilled 4y ago
  This is more or less what I was reaching for, though my attempt was with far less clarity. Thanks for wording it better than I could. The occupation of the participants is an interesting angle. I wonder if it has been studied at any length.
iLoveOncall 4y ago
The list is obvious flamebait, just don't fall for it.
- somewhereoutth 4y ago
  Sadly, it is in fact very real. The difference in how you are treated as an architect vs an engineer [in the UK] is really quite astonishing. And also perhaps with good reason, as an architect you are keeper of the magic and mystery of the 'queen of the arts', whereas as an engineer you are just there to fix the tv/computer/iphone/whatever. As an architect you are part of polite conversation about what the world is/was/could be, whereas as an engineer you would not even get an invite. As an architect your life is (supposedly) parties and beautiful people, as an engineer board game nights and trappist beer (steady now!). Of course the tech boom has upended things somewhat, but, in the the UK at least, we have been managing to keep a lid on that particular nonsense.

FrustratedMonky 4y ago

If this is the emphasis, maybe that is why the empire fell.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

macNchz 4y ago

For what its worth, this is called “occupational prestige” and sociologists run public opinion studies to create actual lists like that: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occupational_prestige https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occupational_prestige

rufus_foreman 4y ago
The actual rankings from that list from high prestige to low (there's no software engineer listed, just computer programmer or computer systems analyst): Doctor Lawyer Software Engineer (if you mean "Computer Systems Analysts and Scientists") Teacher (Postsecondary school) Architect Engineer Executive Teacher (Elementary or Secondary Scool) Software Engineer (if you mean "Computer Programmers") Teacher (Kindergarten) Manager Designer Artist Driver Waiter Bartender Cleaner Which gives a clue why you should never call yourself a computer programmer.

paiute 4y ago

Kind of makes me smile. I've been a Software Engineer in the US long enough to see it go from where you placed it in the list to closer to the top. At least where I live now, everyone wants to be a Software Engineer. I suspect that will change in the next couple years during dotcom 2.0 - back to waiter level.

nynx 4y ago

How very droll. Why are engineers considered so lowly?

somewhereoutth 4y ago
Unfortunately the heroic age of engineering (Brunel, Bazalgette) is behind us. As it grew in complexity, engineering by necessity became corporatized and de-individualised. It was no longer the place for dashing adventurers and gentlemen intellectuals. Instead it has become associated with 'technicianship', the rather boring (but essential) trade of knowing which button to push to make things start working again. Furthermore, it is one of the last professions to resist gender re-balancing, so social events etc are going to be somewhat barren.
- bradlys 4y ago
  There are many other professions which have similar gender gaps. They’re not talked about because the professions aren’t growing as fast and don’t make as much money for such relatively low time investment.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

Ekaros 4y ago

- Artist/Designer/Creative How is that not below the Cleaner or the guy who empties septic tanks?