7 ms·

Really does feel like a “doom loop” for San Francisco. Who will write the definitive book on how everything went downhill over the past 10 or so years? Michael

Really does feel like a “doom loop” for San Francisco. Who will write the definitive book on how everything went downhill over the past 10 or so years? Michael Lewis would entertaining. Or maybe it’s a job for Matt Levine? Who else?

jbm 4y ago
I read Sanfransicko, and thought it was interesting (although not completely convincing). It did help me create a mental framework to understand what happened in North America as a whole while I lived abroad. I definitely would be interested in seeing all of the missed opportunities and failures in prioritization; that would require a reflective insider, which seems unlikely in the near term future.
- jquery 4y ago
  I really hope you didn't take the book that seriously. Shellenberger's central thesis is that addiction, mental illness, and "disaffiliation" are the primary causes of homelessness. However, this oversimplified view ignores the complex interplay of factors such as affordable housing shortages, job loss, and systemic inequalities that contribute to the problem. By focusing solely on progressive policies, Shellenberger turns a blind eye to the broader socio-economic context that has given rise to homelessness in the Bay Area. The book's methodology is highly suspect. Shellenberger relies heavily on secondhand accounts and outdated ethnographic studies while failing to engage with the current experiences of homeless individuals. This glaring omission undermines the credibility of his analysis and reveals a lack of empathy for those affected by the issue. Shellenberger's penchant for exaggeration and misrepresentation further erodes his argument. He is quick to criticize progressive approaches such as harm reduction and housing first policies but offers little in the way of evidence-based alternatives. Instead, he proposes vaguely authoritarian solutions that betray a deep-seated ideological bias. Ultimately, the book's distorted portrayal of homelessness serves only to fan the flames of the culture wars.
  - jbm 4y ago
    Is this a ChatGPT response? I ask because the first sentence I literally say "Interesting, but not completely convincing", which makes it clear I don't consider it the final word on the subject. I don't necessarily agree with the book, but I feel I need to respond. - Criticizing something doesn't imply offering a solution. This has been a bedrock of philosophy and discussion from Socrates. So let's dispense with that first. - Two, I'm not part of any political religion and I don't consider single-handed critiques of any group to be a problem. Considering that so much slant is added to my information from progressive sources, reading an alternative perspective is helpful. - A lack of empathy is thrown around loosely, especially in certain circles, but frankly I don't think that's fair. How much empathy do you think is required for a situation where people are engaged in activities that are harmful to themselves and others? - All government-imposed solutions are "vaguely authoritarian". I'm not an anarchist, I don't see why this should bother me. To take a separate example that you would agree with, repealing zoning laws at the state / provincial level and forcibly changing the characteristic of a neighborhood is fairly authoritarian measure (as it strips local autonomy) but we accept its necessity. - What does exaggeration and misrepresentation (the start of your paragraph) have to do with criticizing "progressive" policies? - Can you clarify what you mean by an "ethnographic study"? - Many of your criticisms seem to be based on vague allusions to things in the book, can you offer concrete examples? I'm willing to be convinced that the book is complete nonsense but not by the arguments you are presenting.
    - jquery 4y ago
      It's unfortunate that instead of addressing the points I raised in my response, you've chosen to question my authenticity as an HN member. The book propagates misguided notions that stem from a privileged perspective, which views poverty as a choice and supports harsh legal actions against the destitute. I believe my original response provided clear and cogent arguments, and considering your unfounded accusation, I don't see the value in continuing this discussion. EDIT: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html "Please don't post insinuations about astroturfing, shilling, bots, brigading, foreign agents, and the like. It degrades discussion and is usually mistaken." My initial response was clear and specific. Rather than addressing my main argument, you assigned me a task/homework. I take your assumption of me being a bot as a compliment, as I've been striving to enhance the professionalism of my HN comments, particularly in discussions with strong opinions where emotions run high.
hezralig 4y ago
Who would have thought optimizing for techies, implementing a monoculture of sorts, would be bad for a city. I recall headlines of restaurants struggling to find cooks due to the cost of rent + commuting being too prohibitive for service workers of the city. Who knows, maybe this "death-loop" is actually healthy for the longterm well-being of the city.
morkalork 4y ago
Maybe the city could implement some sort of "Sanctuary District", a walled-off ghetto that is used to contain the poor, the sick, the mentally disabled, and anyone else who cannot support themselves. It would be right on schedule for 2024.
- hezralig 4y ago
  I get the reference to DS9, however, that isn't really describing a solution to the issues San Francisco is facing at the moment.
  - morkalork 4y ago
    At this point, I would not be shocked if someone unironically proposed it as a potential solution. It's even happened before with japanese americans being sent to internment camps.
    - seanp2k2 4y ago
      Get them bus tickets back to Florida /s
- Fauntleroy 4y ago
  The Tenderloin?
- earthboundkid 4y ago
  https://bellriots.netlify.app/ https://bellriots.netlify.app/
- ehnto 4y ago
  Japan has somewhat of a "sanctuary district" in Sanya, Tokyo, it's been an area for those left behind for a long time as I understand it. People in need tend to congregate around help services provided by the city, and Sanya has a lot of those services. It is unclear if homeless are "moved" to Sanya or if it is just a natural place for them to end up, because of the mentioned services. Housing, food and vending machines are also extra cheap in Sanya. The situation for homeless Americans is a lot more dire than living in Sanya, from an outsiders perspective. I don't envy having to sleep in SF streets.
crooked-v 4y ago
> Who will write the definitive book on how everything went downhill over the past 10 or so years? I feel like most of that would just be 200 pages of saying "And then, San Francisco didn't allow enough housing to be built." over and over.
- fnordpiglet 4y ago
  I figured it would be 200 pages of “and that’s a result of Reagan’s drive to shut down public mental health” I very much doubt the visible homeless problem is a result of housing - the iceberg is a result of housing. The visible homeliness wouldn’t be solved if rent were half - that doesn’t treat schizophrenia
  - simonw 4y ago
    Becoming homeless through no longer being able to afford rent (a common cause of homelessness) is extremely bad for your mental health.
    - Jcowell 4y ago
      In this case Housing would be a preventive measure but it doesn’t deal with the problem that everyone truly wants dealt with: the mentally I’ll. How do we solve the mentally I’ll problem? Is it that involuntary commitment with excessive oversight is incomparable with American values of freedom ?
      - trilbyglens 4y ago
        Involuntary commitment was done away with as in the past the conditions in many facilties were super bad. Rather than reform the system they just shut it down. Now there's just nothing at all.
        fnordpiglet 4y ago
        Leaving humans to rot in the streets seems morally more convenient but not better.
option 4y ago
Have you read San Fransicko by Michael Shellenberger?

jbm 4y ago

I read Sanfransicko, and thought it was interesting (although not completely convincing). It did help me create a mental framework to understand what happened in North America as a whole while I lived abroad. I definitely would be interested in seeing all of the missed opportunities and failures in prioritization; that would require a reflective insider, which seems unlikely in the near term future.

jquery 4y ago
I really hope you didn't take the book that seriously. Shellenberger's central thesis is that addiction, mental illness, and "disaffiliation" are the primary causes of homelessness. However, this oversimplified view ignores the complex interplay of factors such as affordable housing shortages, job loss, and systemic inequalities that contribute to the problem. By focusing solely on progressive policies, Shellenberger turns a blind eye to the broader socio-economic context that has given rise to homelessness in the Bay Area. The book's methodology is highly suspect. Shellenberger relies heavily on secondhand accounts and outdated ethnographic studies while failing to engage with the current experiences of homeless individuals. This glaring omission undermines the credibility of his analysis and reveals a lack of empathy for those affected by the issue. Shellenberger's penchant for exaggeration and misrepresentation further erodes his argument. He is quick to criticize progressive approaches such as harm reduction and housing first policies but offers little in the way of evidence-based alternatives. Instead, he proposes vaguely authoritarian solutions that betray a deep-seated ideological bias. Ultimately, the book's distorted portrayal of homelessness serves only to fan the flames of the culture wars.
- jbm 4y ago
  Is this a ChatGPT response? I ask because the first sentence I literally say "Interesting, but not completely convincing", which makes it clear I don't consider it the final word on the subject. I don't necessarily agree with the book, but I feel I need to respond. - Criticizing something doesn't imply offering a solution. This has been a bedrock of philosophy and discussion from Socrates. So let's dispense with that first. - Two, I'm not part of any political religion and I don't consider single-handed critiques of any group to be a problem. Considering that so much slant is added to my information from progressive sources, reading an alternative perspective is helpful. - A lack of empathy is thrown around loosely, especially in certain circles, but frankly I don't think that's fair. How much empathy do you think is required for a situation where people are engaged in activities that are harmful to themselves and others? - All government-imposed solutions are "vaguely authoritarian". I'm not an anarchist, I don't see why this should bother me. To take a separate example that you would agree with, repealing zoning laws at the state / provincial level and forcibly changing the characteristic of a neighborhood is fairly authoritarian measure (as it strips local autonomy) but we accept its necessity. - What does exaggeration and misrepresentation (the start of your paragraph) have to do with criticizing "progressive" policies? - Can you clarify what you mean by an "ethnographic study"? - Many of your criticisms seem to be based on vague allusions to things in the book, can you offer concrete examples? I'm willing to be convinced that the book is complete nonsense but not by the arguments you are presenting.
  - jquery 4y ago
    It's unfortunate that instead of addressing the points I raised in my response, you've chosen to question my authenticity as an HN member. The book propagates misguided notions that stem from a privileged perspective, which views poverty as a choice and supports harsh legal actions against the destitute. I believe my original response provided clear and cogent arguments, and considering your unfounded accusation, I don't see the value in continuing this discussion. EDIT: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html "Please don't post insinuations about astroturfing, shilling, bots, brigading, foreign agents, and the like. It degrades discussion and is usually mistaken." My initial response was clear and specific. Rather than addressing my main argument, you assigned me a task/homework. I take your assumption of me being a bot as a compliment, as I've been striving to enhance the professionalism of my HN comments, particularly in discussions with strong opinions where emotions run high.

hezralig 4y ago

Who would have thought optimizing for techies, implementing a monoculture of sorts, would be bad for a city. I recall headlines of restaurants struggling to find cooks due to the cost of rent + commuting being too prohibitive for service workers of the city. Who knows, maybe this "death-loop" is actually healthy for the longterm well-being of the city.

morkalork 4y ago

Maybe the city could implement some sort of "Sanctuary District", a walled-off ghetto that is used to contain the poor, the sick, the mentally disabled, and anyone else who cannot support themselves. It would be right on schedule for 2024.

hezralig 4y ago
I get the reference to DS9, however, that isn't really describing a solution to the issues San Francisco is facing at the moment.
- morkalork 4y ago
  At this point, I would not be shocked if someone unironically proposed it as a potential solution. It's even happened before with japanese americans being sent to internment camps.
  - seanp2k2 4y ago
    Get them bus tickets back to Florida /s
Fauntleroy 4y ago
The Tenderloin?
earthboundkid 4y ago
https://bellriots.netlify.app/ https://bellriots.netlify.app/
ehnto 4y ago
Japan has somewhat of a "sanctuary district" in Sanya, Tokyo, it's been an area for those left behind for a long time as I understand it. People in need tend to congregate around help services provided by the city, and Sanya has a lot of those services. It is unclear if homeless are "moved" to Sanya or if it is just a natural place for them to end up, because of the mentioned services. Housing, food and vending machines are also extra cheap in Sanya. The situation for homeless Americans is a lot more dire than living in Sanya, from an outsiders perspective. I don't envy having to sleep in SF streets.

crooked-v 4y ago

> Who will write the definitive book on how everything went downhill over the past 10 or so years? I feel like most of that would just be 200 pages of saying "And then, San Francisco didn't allow enough housing to be built." over and over.

fnordpiglet 4y ago
I figured it would be 200 pages of “and that’s a result of Reagan’s drive to shut down public mental health” I very much doubt the visible homeless problem is a result of housing - the iceberg is a result of housing. The visible homeliness wouldn’t be solved if rent were half - that doesn’t treat schizophrenia
- simonw 4y ago
  Becoming homeless through no longer being able to afford rent (a common cause of homelessness) is extremely bad for your mental health.
  - Jcowell 4y ago
    In this case Housing would be a preventive measure but it doesn’t deal with the problem that everyone truly wants dealt with: the mentally I’ll. How do we solve the mentally I’ll problem? Is it that involuntary commitment with excessive oversight is incomparable with American values of freedom ?
    - trilbyglens 4y ago
      Involuntary commitment was done away with as in the past the conditions in many facilties were super bad. Rather than reform the system they just shut it down. Now there's just nothing at all.
      - fnordpiglet 4y ago
        Leaving humans to rot in the streets seems morally more convenient but not better.

option 4y ago

Have you read San Fransicko by Michael Shellenberger?