15 ms·

Why French Parents Are Superior

318 points by acak 15y ago

manuletroll 15y ago
I think the author didn't go to the same France I live in.
- masklinn 15y ago
  Yeah, that's also the impression I got (the "no throwing food or temper tantrums" for instance, or "sleep full nights from 2-3 months", some of my friends would like to live in that fantasy). Other assertions do hold, at least in my experience, though: > When French friends visited, by contrast, the grownups had coffee and the children played happily by themselves. but I'd really find anything else weird. > And there were no fixed mealtimes; the American kids just went to the refrigerator and took food whenever they wanted. To the French couple, it seemed like the American kids were in charge. When I went to the US, I did notice this difference (no fixed mealtimes, at least during the day, and regular raiding of the fridge whenever) but I don't see how that makes it "seem like the American kids were in charge", it's just that there's no fixed mid-day meal time.
- mohene1 15y ago
  Manule, When Americans go to Lyon, they go to France, when they go to France they go to Europe. You don't need to go to France to find well-behaved children, but this is what appeals to Americans the most: "Beautiful redhead child", France is great, etc. And these reaffirming notions are great in appeasing your audience and selling books. Interesting article b/c Gary Marx, Professor Emeritus in Sociology at MIT, wrote (in 1961) : http://web.mit.edu/gtmarx/www/whitenegro.html http://web.mit.edu/gtmarx/www/whitenegro.html Be warned, you may be slightly offended. A synopsis. On the cusps of the "revolution" in 1961 America, Marx states American mothers were increasingly trying to be "hip". Now, there is actually a magazine called "Hip Mama" sold at Whole Foods ( http://hipmama.com/ http://hipmama.com/ ) He mentions a story about a hippie, who were then called "beats", firing a caretaker because the caretaker's thoughts on raising children was too rigid, traditional and overbearing. I think this is where the temper-tantrum nation , me-first phenomenon began. I have friends like the author of this article who want to empower their children, not tell them "no", etc. For them, it comes from an almost religious belief in freedom. Meaning , whenever making a decision focus on what is most free as opposed to what works. I remember watching a segment about a high school science class in Oregon who threw imported crayfish into a local stream because they didn't believe in killing, and wanted the crayfish to be free. Well, the non-local crayfish started killing off the local crayfish. http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/science/jan-june11/pledge_03-10.html http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/science/jan-june11/pledge_03-...
  - paganel 15y ago
    > As has often been noted, the black bourgeoisie take a very positive stand toward middle-class values and are very critical of average Negroes. Frazier has written, "they have accepted unconditionally the values of the white bourgeois world: its morals and its canons of respectability, its standards of beauty and consumption. In fact, they have tended to overemphasize their conformity to white ideals." 2 They have strongly internalized middle-class values emphasizing self-control, deferred gratification, achievement, extreme cleanliness and rigid moral standards. Never thought that an Eddie Murphy sketch would be close to on-topic on HN, but here it is anyway (I think his story refers to the late '60s-early '70s): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gsbk_lwioxY http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gsbk_lwioxY
  - raldi 15y ago
    Could you explain your first sentence?
- GuiA 15y ago
  It's definitely true that the author is painting an idealistic picture here, and that French kids do throw tantrums, etc. However, having lived in the US and France extensively (I'm French and have been raised by French parents), I find that the author has the good points about general attitude. "We're not at your service" is something that my parents would often say to me and my brothers as kids, and there was always a distinction between "grownups" and "kids" - when my parents had their friends over for dinner, we knew that they were not to be interrupted and just played with their friends' kids (and everyone was happy that way, actually- grownups got their time to enjoy, and since they were busy we were free to do things between kids that we wouldn't have tried to do had they been watching). Parents tend give more independence to their kids as well- for example having no problems sending them off to summer camps for a few weeks so that they can have some vacation of their own. However, I have also worked extensively with kids in France over the past 5+ yers, and find that parents are slowly adopting the "anglo-saxon" way- there are much more "helicopter" parents now than there used to be.
- arguesalot 15y ago
  Well, go to Eurodisney and compare kids that speak different languages. French kids are generally well behaved, with other southerneuropeans being the noisiest.
hnecib 15y ago
I tried hard to find anything in this article that had anything to do with tech or startups. I really did.
- GuiA 15y ago
  From the submission guidelines: What to Submit On-Topic: Anything that good hackers would find interesting. That includes more than hacking and startups. If you had to reduce it to a sentence, the answer might be: anything that gratifies one's intellectual curiosity. http://ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html http://ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html :)
  - hnecib 15y ago
    That's fine I guess. I'm sure there's a good hacker out there that is interested in the different parenting styles of French and American mothers. Though I'm not sure about the plural of hackers. That might be a stretch. There are also hackers out there that are interested in politics, salad recipes, what Bill Murray is doing, and lolcats. I just feel like I'm on Reddit is all.
    - boreacrat 15y ago
      salad recipes, what Bill Murray is doing, and lolcats don't really gratify one's intellectual curiosity though:)
      - gsivil 15y ago
        It is not the theme that gratify one's intellectual curiosity but how he treats it instead.
    - lancewiggs 15y ago
      It's about hacking parenting, and for parents running start ups the insights could be transformational.
    - sliverstorm 15y ago
ImprovedSilence 15y ago
Not that my sample size is that huge, but to counter this article, my girlfriend is an elementary school teacher, in the US, but in a VERY multicultural school. Apparently the one French kid in class is the biggest little snotty shit, and his parents are mad uptight.
- ardit33 15y ago
  Yes, for some reason french people have this reputation of being very snotty/arrogant by nature. Especially if they are from Paris. This is total anecdotal evidence. but I am not sure how can one quantify snottiness.
  - deleted 15y ago
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- lancewiggs 15y ago
  Imagine being taken from a society where the rules are constant and fair, which rewards patience and where fellow children are well disciplined and patient. Now drop into an American classroom. I'd be snotty too.
ChrisNorstrom 15y ago
Emotional manipulation works quite well. This is how I was raised. I had such a strong love for my mom that I didn't want to do anything to hurt or upset her, so when she asked for something kindly I always listened and just did it. My father on the other hand. Typical manipulative, dominating, threatening, intimidating, masculine, control freak. I love him but I'm still recovering from his "parenting style". My relationship with him is permanently damaged. Even now that he's older and his testosterone levels have gone down I still avoid him. A decade of being yelled and screamed at and threatened doesn't just go away. It's always there. I've told him I love him lots of times, I just wish I could tell him how much of an Asshole he was.
- tobiasSoftware 15y ago
  This mirrors what's happened with me over the last few years, I'm having some trouble with both parents. I'm 24, moving out soon, but stuck in the house for a few months before I can live with some friends. My mom I have an extremely strong love for so I never want to do anything to hurt or upset her, but she has no tolerance, so it's very hard for me because I feel like I have to be the perfect child for her. She even has me fetching the paper or a laundry basket for her, it's not like it's a chore that was given to me, but instead I'll be walking by and she says, "Hey I need you to go get the paper for me" and there's nothing I can do. Some of my friends tell me, just tell her no, and I'm like, you don't get it, I'm not really allowed to tell her no, because it would upset her so much. She even frowns on me leaving the house for things except when she knows exactly where I'm going and why, and will pressure me into just staying put, so these days I hardly even leave the house because of her. I do really care about her, and that's why I put up with things about her that drive me crazy. On the other hand, my dad's so much of a control freak I've had to cut ties with him. Three years ago he did horrible things, my mom divorced him, and I ended up not speaking to him, but he tries to force his way back into my life. He sometimes says, "Well I'm your father so I have a right to... use your car whenever I want to, visit you whenever I want to, tell you to do something whenever I want to." My relationship with him isn't just damaged, but is gone after the way he's treated me. Just the last few months, first he came to my graduation after I specifically told him not to, then he pressured my mom into giving information about me, by refusing to tell her necessary financial information unless she told him some things about me first.
icarus_drowning 15y ago
I think the dichotomy between perceived empowerment and actual empowerment is interesting. Children who are allowed to do "whatever they want" seem empowered, but in actuality, they are disempowered by being deprived of necessary practice in learning important disciplines (patience, long-term planning, etc.) Actually empowering children involves giving them choices, yes, but within a framework that constrains them. "You have a choice to eat the candy now, but at a cost later" teaches a child to make long(er)-term decisions than "do whatever you want". This mirrors the actual experiences they will have later in life, where they will have freedom, but still be required to operate with the bounds of lawful society. (I can buy myself X now, but I will have to save later in order to pay my mortgage, etc.) By refusing to limit children by modeling the realities they will face later in life, adults teach children that consequences are fantasy, often to disastrous results when they grow up.
johnnyn 15y ago
I think the story at the end about speaking to your child with conviction and the right tone is spot on. I have a 20 month old daughter. I constantly struggle with this because I want to be nice even when saying 'no', but it doesn't take long to realize that being stern without being scary is the best balance. I realized that my 'no' when she opens the pantry door is totally without conviction and she doesn't respond at all. But my 'no' when she strays off the sidewalk and near the street is obviously much more stern and she knows I'm serious. The most difficult thing is saying 'no' with conviction when you just don't really care that much (like the pantry door).
- MrKurtHaeusler 15y ago
  I think you are doing it right, with different levels of conviction. If you give a really stern "no" just for something harmless like opening the pantry door, she might not react when you really mean it. In fact it might even be better just to let her in the pantry, and save the "no"s for when you really mean it.
Nogwater 15y ago
To focus on restaurant behavior, I'd be curious to know how much time the average French person spends at the table in a day, compared with the average American. I'm sure it varies a lot from family to family, but it seems like Americans (and I'm no exception) rush through their meals, while the French linger and socialize while eating. Maybe that has something to do with French kids being more well behaved in restaurants.
- thibaut_barrere 15y ago
  I don't have clear numbers, but I can tell that for us family meals are a moment to talk together; we usually don't hurry (father + mother both working at home here + 1 kid).
- emixam 15y ago
  We do stay for a long time at the table. At lunch it's usually 1 hour (even at work) and it can be much longer in the evening, 2 or more hours maybe if we're at a restaurant. When I'm at my parent's house, it's never less than an hour. French people tend to talk a lot when at a table!
edw519 15y ago
This isn't as much about place as it is about time and could have easily been entitled, "Why 1950s Parents Are Superior." We were raised in the U.S. in the 50s and 60s much like the French children in the article. We weren't treated like children, but like small adults. There were no children's menus in restaurants. If we wanted to go to out to eat, we dressed and acted properly and ate real food with our parents. If we wanted to go to little league, piano lessons, or anywhere else, we got off our butts and found a way to get there while Dad was at work and Mom was watching younger siblings. We walked to school from age 5. If we were late for dinner, we didn't eat. If we were late getting home at night, we didn't get to go out again. If we wanted money we got a job, not an allowance. If we misbehaved...I don't know what would happen. We didn't misbehave; we just knew better. Most of our cousins and friends were the same, with a few exceptions. That was just the way it was. Then somebody somewhere fucked it all up and now schools are surrounded by parents in minivans picking up special people who never really grow up. No wonder. The French aren't different, just late. Just give them a few more years and they'll fuck it all up, too.
- thibaut_barrere 15y ago
  Do you mean you believe that what you describe for 50s/60s matches what is happening currently in France? If so that's far from it, at least from the people I know here (and I know a couple :-). Children here aren't considered small adults, and there's no way (for most at least) they walk to school when aged 5 etc. I don't think (honestly) that Europe or France is just applying the same recipes years after the US; things are really different for some parts, not happening later IMO.
- Avshalom 15y ago
  The kids who grew up in the 50/60's and thought "this sucks" are the ones who "fucked it up." Apparently they were the super majority, having grown up in 80/90s I'm fairly glad they did too.
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Aloisius 15y ago
I was what people today might call a "free range" child in the 80s. I interacted with my family mostly at meals and was left to my own devices from a very young age. I was not placated when I threw a tantrum or cried. I was responsible to get to school and back from the time I was 6 (nothing serious: a mile and a half). I made and packed my own school lunches from age 8 on. The line between my world and the adult's world was very clearly defined and it was clear that I had to make my own fun, but the parameters around what I was allowed to do were well defined as well. While I got into some mischief here and there, it had been drilled into me at a young age how a good person behaved and I emulated it. When I tell parents of how I grew up, the reaction almost without exception is complete horror. I have had several women try to console me. One woman told me that my emotional scars must run deep and gave me the number for a psychologist! Needless to say, I don't talk about it much these days. Now I don't know if how I grew up would be traumatic to other children. I do think that parents act like their children's entertainers/servants and try hard to ensure they like them or they're cool or, and this I'll never understand, try to be friends with them. I will say that it worked for me and I don't hate my family for doing it. Quite the opposite in fact.
- bmj 15y ago
  This is what we are trying to do with our kids (boys aged 8 and 6). They make their own lunches, generally entertain themselves, though we still have "family time," and do their share of chores aroubd the house. I think there is a tendency, however, among some parents to have their kids do everything for them, too. I've seen parents yell at their kids to come inside and a get snack for them. I think kids should be taught to contribute to the home economy, but treating them like little indentured servants is perhaps going a bit far. As far aa being "friends" with your kids, I think there's a narrow line to walk. I want my kids to trust me (and therefore talk to me), and I want to enjoy their company, too. There does need to be some sort of boundry there, though, lest you lose your authority.
  - kellishaver 15y ago
    This is very similar to the way we're raising our daughter (9). She gets herself up and dressed in the morning and off to the buss top (too far to walk to school). We do things together, but it's not our job to entertain her. She finds her own entertainment, and often that means playing with other kids in the neighborhood - fine, so long as she's home by dinner. She knows if she's late she misses dinner and if that she misbehaves at someone's house, then that privileged of being able to come and go with the other kids in the neighborhood is gone. She has daily and weekly chores that she's expected to do. She doesn't get an allowance for that - it's just a normal part of contributing to the family duties, and if she wants something, she does extra chores to earn the money. She's a great kid, never have had a behavior problem out of her. I think part of the reason for that is in addition to just giving her a whole bunch of love, we also respect her and hold her to a standard that we know she's capable of. That's very much how I was raised, and I have a great relationship with my dad and a lot of respect for him. I hope this leads to a similar relationship with her, and so far it seems to be. It's working out. She does stupid kid things from time to time, like all kids do, but she's learning to think for herself and make good decisions, too. Proud of my kid. Last summer, though, I got a call from a neighbor down the street telling me that my daughter wasn't allowed to come down there and play with her kid anymore, unless I walked her down there, because it was too dangerous for my then 8 year old child to be walking down there by herself... Mind you, you can see their house from our front yard. I feel really badly for the little girl who lives in that house. She's 8 now, not allowed out of the yard, and has no other friends in the neighborhood.
tnuc 15y ago
The economist had review last week. A link for those that may be interested. http://www.economist.com/node/21543122 http://www.economist.com/node/21543122
ahoyhere 15y ago
I've found this true in most places in (continental) Europe. I spent 4 years living in Vienna, Austria and was initially shocked & then spoiled by how well-behaved the kids there are. It'd become simply the normal background for me, but I was reminded of it again when a friend visited between Christmas and New Year's and we went to a v. large thermal spa outside of Vienna and were surrounded by children at the indoor pool. She said, "Funny that there aren't any kids here." I said, "There are tons of them! Just look!" Not only were there at least 30 teenagers of various ages, there were more than 10 young children under 5, including one infant in arms. All were so calm and quiet that she didn't even know they were there. Not that the occasional toddler didn't try to run away from her parents -- I saw it happening -- but everything was chill. No screeching. No tantrums. No "COME BACK HERE!". It didn't stand out to me cuz I got used to it, but my friend was flabbergasted. Austrians love their kids and treat them kindly and with respect, but never do the kids get the idea that they are the entirety of the adults' world. (Which sounds harsh at first, but that kind of relationship is truly codependent and bad for everyone.)
arguesalot 15y ago
A previous article about how chinese mothers are better created quite a stir. Is there some sort of parenting crisis in the US that leads to this kind of soul-searching? (I m not in the US, so i'm curious to know)
- billswift 15y ago
  There is always a "parenting crisis" in the US. I remember hearing this sort of stuff when I was a kid, 40 years ago, and have seen books on "parenting" from as far back as the 1920s with the same sorts of stuff.
- radikalus 15y ago
  I'm currently working on a piece on why Chimpanzee mothers are superior.
- colonel_panic 15y ago
  The fact that the previous article created a stir is precisely why the WSJ published this one.
zobzu 15y ago
yeah exactly! its because you see they're french so they do it right! no one else tell their kids to say "thanks, please", and no one else dares to say no to whatever stupid things kids might want! Exactly. Only the French educate their children. Guess what. Half the people don't educate the children, half of them do. Or maybe it's 2/3. Who cares. The point is it has strictly nothing to do with being French. (I'm French.)
- mturmon 15y ago
  For the (American) readers of the article, France can be an imaginary place where the parents use special techniques (described fully in the author's book, conveniently on sale right over here), and everything is happy and wonderful. The part I liked about the sales job is the idea of supporting the child's autonomy ("Cadre means that kids have very firm limits about certain things -- that's the frame -- and that the parents strictly enforce these. But inside the cadre, French parents entrust their kids with quite a lot of freedom and autonomy.") France is that magical place where the boundary line between kids' autonomy and parental authority gets drawn in the perfect mutually satisfying place. (Not French, but love visiting France.)
Tichy 15y ago
"After about 10 minutes, Leo stopped trying to leave altogether." I think there is another possible explanation: by stopping to chase Leo, it stopped being a game for him. It might not have been her sterner "no" at all. Also I'd like to point out that the French are famous for putting their kids into kindergarden from the age of 3 months. From my perspective (dad of a 16 months old who is still at home) that seems rather cruel.
- lysium 15y ago
  I was also wondering why the kindergarten aspect was completely missing in the article, as if it did not happen. It could well be that French children do not see their parents so often and are ready to do whatever is needed to have a comfortable atmosphere during the few hours they see them, in particular if their parents don't play those games.
  - watmough 15y ago
    The cynical might suspect that the idea of providing state-subsidized kindergarten to the very young, in order to promote happier children and less-stressed parents, might be something that wouldn't make it into the WSJ.
abalashov 15y ago
(I'm a first-generation Russian immigrant, raised by Russian parents predominantly in the US.) There is no question, in my experience, that the number one problem in American parenting psychology is the idea that you need to always respond to the kids' immediate needs and to give them attention. It prevents them from learning how to intellectually stimulate themselves, or be alone for any meaningful period of time, both of which are absolutely indispensable survival adaptations for childhood and adult life. The best parenting for the average American parent I've run into is less parenting. I also have the sneaking suspicion that people delay or refrain from having kids here more due to the implied premise that having them is a life-consuming ordeal that totally, completely dominates adult consciousness. It shouldn't do that. Yes, having kids changes your life, but you're still you. You do not live at the pleasure of your child. When hanging out with adult friends with kids, it absolutely astounds me that they end up repeating the same sentence ten times because their kid keeps interrupting them, in a tireless quest for attention. If I did that, my parents would've belted me silly. I guess that's "child abuse" here. Either way, aside from a good spanking, the best thing my parents ever did for me was ignore me a lot. I probably would have turned out to be diagnosed with "ADD" or some other claptrap if they hadn't.
- LearnYouALisp 15y ago
  Ну ты даёшь! Ж)
- LearnYouALisp 15y ago
  Just so you know, I appreciated your comment (since that expression can be taken either way). Maybe someone didn't like the fact that it was in Russian.
- forcefsck 15y ago
  Just because you mentioned (the totally unnecessary) beating, doesn't rent the rest of your comment false. In case you get a "but beatig is wrong" reply.
- pnathan 15y ago
  I have never seen the problem with well-disciplined spanking.
sshah 15y ago
French parents learned to ignore, say no to their kids from their parents who learned from their parents and so on. In other words - it might be in their culture. I grew up in India and do find a lot of similarities in my upbringing - our egos were not always served, maybe 30% of times. We had family in US and I noticed - kid's egos in their families were served 90% of the times. As mentioned in the article, kids were ruling their life...whereas in my family it was the other way around. Did it make any difference in the lives of those kids or mine - that's a different topic. My point here is maybe American parents were told to over parent. By whom - not sure, but could be babies r us, or mattelle sponsored studies, or ads on TV to promote products, etc.
- jf271 15y ago
  I think that saying no to kids is one of the most important things you can do to help them. Too many of the kids my kids grew up with never heard the word no during their childhood because their parents wanted to give them everything they did have while growing up. They ended up being spoiled brats and got even worse once the school system in the USA got a hold of them and told them what unique individuals they were. Disappointment is a part of life and how to handle it is something that should be learned early in life.
zabar 15y ago
French here. Indeed the view of the articles seems idealistic, but it rings true in lots of aspects. If you are interested in learning more about the cultural differences especially around children education, there is a great book written by a French psychoanalyst, now living in the US called l'Autre rive. You can download it for free in French or English on his website http://www.pbaudry.com/ http://www.pbaudry.com/ I read it a few years ago before moving to New York, and from my experience, most of it is true. I found it interesting to put words on things we don't necessary noticed and try to find the reasons behind them.
splat 15y ago
I would be curious if one could quantify this by perhaps traveling on several domestic flights in the US and in France of similar lengths and record how often a child cries to see if there is a statistically significant difference between the two countries.
sakura_k 15y ago
Ugh. So many parents in the US believe to the core of their selves that their children are child-emperors, too rare and delicate to suffer the torture of being denied a single whim. Not to get too "get off my lawn", but when I was a kid, kids didn't rule public spaces the way they do today. Many parents not only won't tell their kids "no" under any circumstances, they freak out if anybody else asks their precious spawn to stop kicking them on airplanes, running into their legs with shopping carts, or shooting BB guns at their home's windows. Also, get off my lawn.
hcarvalhoalves 15y ago
Very interesting essay. I'm not sure if this is a "French get parenting right" as much as it is "American parenting is screwed up". I'm from Brazil myself, and it's worrying to see that, together with the latest economic changes (higher income), parenting is getting more distant to what she describes to happen in France, and is starting to shaping up the same problems seen in USA. I from a 80's generation and had an education close to what she describes, but nowadays parents work overhours to try to afford an expensive lifestyle, kids are raised by nannies and they basically play videogame the whole day. I'm sure this lifestyle doesn't allow kids to educate themselves with so many distractions and instant gratification around, and in an atmosphere that demands so much from parents (working overhours instead of enjoying the family, having time free for friends, dinners, etc.).
gnat 15y ago
I much prefer the Guardian's "Digested Read" version of this book: http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2012/jan/29/digested-read-french-children-dont-throw http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2012/jan/29/digested-read-fr...
ig1 15y ago
The problem is that well-behaved doesn't equate to better children. To quote the YC application form "Please tell us about the time you most successfully hacked some (non-computer) system to your advantage." Creativity, rule-bending and being outspoken are often hallmarks of innovators and entrepreneurs. But obviously patience and obedience are virtues as well. Culturally we have to make trade-offs deciding which of these we want to encourage in kids and which we don't. It's silly to pretend there's just one way that's better across the board. TMTOWTDI.
- evincarofautumn 15y ago
  I agree with the sentiment (TMTOWTDI), but I also think that it’s hard to stifle an interested mind. My parents let me alone to do what I pleased when I was little (play with LEGO, mostly) and that self-sufficiency carried on. Later, I wanted to program computers, so they let me. I talked on shady IRC channels learning about network security and operating systems, and that was fine. The important thing is that there were boundaries—no giving away personal information, for example—and the ever-present ability to ask for help if I really needed it. Perhaps it’s not about refraining entirely from breaking the rules, but rather about learning which rules are okay to break.
- nooop 15y ago
  You are borderline to the false dichotomy. Of course "well-behaved doesn't equate to better", (except if all other things are being equal), but having well-behaved children don't preclude them from being creative and so over. Agitated is not the synonymous of entrepreneurial!
JoeAltmaier 15y ago
My boys grew up this way, in Iowa, in the 90's and 00's. Maybe it has more to do with population density, having a parent at home and a community with shared values. Anyway we ended up with 3 Eagle Scouts, one now a veteran, one a CS graduate from CMU and one a 3-time all-stater in cello. Just regular Iowa country kids. You could trust them with anything - your car, your life savings, your girlfriend. They learned to work hard at a young age (6-8) at home, at church and on their Uncle's farm; to get themselves organized for school from the start; to clean a bathroom and do dishes. We never talked down to them. Their friends work hard with a smile, want nothing more than to be treated as an adult. Its easier I guess when their friends share the same goals, the lessons seem natural and normal. We did this consciously, left the big city when they were old enough to feel limited by sidewalks and malls, and bought land in Iowa where I grew up. I don't think that's all necessary or possible for everyone. But it sure helped!
shapeshed 15y ago
This is a good example of creating a utopia to explore everything that is disliked about a status quo. The article is almost entirely anecdotal with little offered to back up supposition and conjecture.
sunahsuh 15y ago
I've been reading up recently on dog training since I'm watching my parents' unruly dog for a few weeks and it's remarkable how similar the keys to training a well-behaved dog are to how the french treat their kids... I'm not entirely sure how to feel about that, hah.
charlieok 15y ago
Why is this trending on Hacker News?
4th_paradigm 15y ago
french superiority? this article is based on the anecdotes of an out-of-touch expat, who has spent too much time in the company of privileged Parisians. last time i was in France the general atmosphere was similar to this music video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FU7bFpPJiww http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FU7bFpPJiww, teenagers burning down their own city etc. heh.

318 points by acak 15y ago

manuletroll 15y ago

I think the author didn't go to the same France I live in.

masklinn 15y ago
Yeah, that's also the impression I got (the "no throwing food or temper tantrums" for instance, or "sleep full nights from 2-3 months", some of my friends would like to live in that fantasy). Other assertions do hold, at least in my experience, though: > When French friends visited, by contrast, the grownups had coffee and the children played happily by themselves. but I'd really find anything else weird. > And there were no fixed mealtimes; the American kids just went to the refrigerator and took food whenever they wanted. To the French couple, it seemed like the American kids were in charge. When I went to the US, I did notice this difference (no fixed mealtimes, at least during the day, and regular raiding of the fridge whenever) but I don't see how that makes it "seem like the American kids were in charge", it's just that there's no fixed mid-day meal time.
mohene1 15y ago
Manule, When Americans go to Lyon, they go to France, when they go to France they go to Europe. You don't need to go to France to find well-behaved children, but this is what appeals to Americans the most: "Beautiful redhead child", France is great, etc. And these reaffirming notions are great in appeasing your audience and selling books. Interesting article b/c Gary Marx, Professor Emeritus in Sociology at MIT, wrote (in 1961) : http://web.mit.edu/gtmarx/www/whitenegro.html http://web.mit.edu/gtmarx/www/whitenegro.html Be warned, you may be slightly offended. A synopsis. On the cusps of the "revolution" in 1961 America, Marx states American mothers were increasingly trying to be "hip". Now, there is actually a magazine called "Hip Mama" sold at Whole Foods ( http://hipmama.com/ http://hipmama.com/ ) He mentions a story about a hippie, who were then called "beats", firing a caretaker because the caretaker's thoughts on raising children was too rigid, traditional and overbearing. I think this is where the temper-tantrum nation , me-first phenomenon began. I have friends like the author of this article who want to empower their children, not tell them "no", etc. For them, it comes from an almost religious belief in freedom. Meaning , whenever making a decision focus on what is most free as opposed to what works. I remember watching a segment about a high school science class in Oregon who threw imported crayfish into a local stream because they didn't believe in killing, and wanted the crayfish to be free. Well, the non-local crayfish started killing off the local crayfish. http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/science/jan-june11/pledge_03-10.html http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/science/jan-june11/pledge_03-...
- paganel 15y ago
  > As has often been noted, the black bourgeoisie take a very positive stand toward middle-class values and are very critical of average Negroes. Frazier has written, "they have accepted unconditionally the values of the white bourgeois world: its morals and its canons of respectability, its standards of beauty and consumption. In fact, they have tended to overemphasize their conformity to white ideals." 2 They have strongly internalized middle-class values emphasizing self-control, deferred gratification, achievement, extreme cleanliness and rigid moral standards. Never thought that an Eddie Murphy sketch would be close to on-topic on HN, but here it is anyway (I think his story refers to the late '60s-early '70s): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gsbk_lwioxY http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gsbk_lwioxY
- raldi 15y ago
  Could you explain your first sentence?
GuiA 15y ago
It's definitely true that the author is painting an idealistic picture here, and that French kids do throw tantrums, etc. However, having lived in the US and France extensively (I'm French and have been raised by French parents), I find that the author has the good points about general attitude. "We're not at your service" is something that my parents would often say to me and my brothers as kids, and there was always a distinction between "grownups" and "kids" - when my parents had their friends over for dinner, we knew that they were not to be interrupted and just played with their friends' kids (and everyone was happy that way, actually- grownups got their time to enjoy, and since they were busy we were free to do things between kids that we wouldn't have tried to do had they been watching). Parents tend give more independence to their kids as well- for example having no problems sending them off to summer camps for a few weeks so that they can have some vacation of their own. However, I have also worked extensively with kids in France over the past 5+ yers, and find that parents are slowly adopting the "anglo-saxon" way- there are much more "helicopter" parents now than there used to be.
arguesalot 15y ago
Well, go to Eurodisney and compare kids that speak different languages. French kids are generally well behaved, with other southerneuropeans being the noisiest.

hnecib 15y ago

I tried hard to find anything in this article that had anything to do with tech or startups. I really did.

GuiA 15y ago
From the submission guidelines: What to Submit On-Topic: Anything that good hackers would find interesting. That includes more than hacking and startups. If you had to reduce it to a sentence, the answer might be: anything that gratifies one's intellectual curiosity. http://ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html http://ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html :)
- hnecib 15y ago
  That's fine I guess. I'm sure there's a good hacker out there that is interested in the different parenting styles of French and American mothers. Though I'm not sure about the plural of hackers. That might be a stretch. There are also hackers out there that are interested in politics, salad recipes, what Bill Murray is doing, and lolcats. I just feel like I'm on Reddit is all.
  - boreacrat 15y ago
    salad recipes, what Bill Murray is doing, and lolcats don't really gratify one's intellectual curiosity though:)
    - gsivil 15y ago
      It is not the theme that gratify one's intellectual curiosity but how he treats it instead.
  - lancewiggs 15y ago
    It's about hacking parenting, and for parents running start ups the insights could be transformational.
  - sliverstorm 15y ago

ImprovedSilence 15y ago

Not that my sample size is that huge, but to counter this article, my girlfriend is an elementary school teacher, in the US, but in a VERY multicultural school. Apparently the one French kid in class is the biggest little snotty shit, and his parents are mad uptight.

ardit33 15y ago
Yes, for some reason french people have this reputation of being very snotty/arrogant by nature. Especially if they are from Paris. This is total anecdotal evidence. but I am not sure how can one quantify snottiness.
- deleted 15y ago
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lancewiggs 15y ago
Imagine being taken from a society where the rules are constant and fair, which rewards patience and where fellow children are well disciplined and patient. Now drop into an American classroom. I'd be snotty too.

ChrisNorstrom 15y ago

Emotional manipulation works quite well. This is how I was raised. I had such a strong love for my mom that I didn't want to do anything to hurt or upset her, so when she asked for something kindly I always listened and just did it. My father on the other hand. Typical manipulative, dominating, threatening, intimidating, masculine, control freak. I love him but I'm still recovering from his "parenting style". My relationship with him is permanently damaged. Even now that he's older and his testosterone levels have gone down I still avoid him. A decade of being yelled and screamed at and threatened doesn't just go away. It's always there. I've told him I love him lots of times, I just wish I could tell him how much of an Asshole he was.

tobiasSoftware 15y ago
This mirrors what's happened with me over the last few years, I'm having some trouble with both parents. I'm 24, moving out soon, but stuck in the house for a few months before I can live with some friends. My mom I have an extremely strong love for so I never want to do anything to hurt or upset her, but she has no tolerance, so it's very hard for me because I feel like I have to be the perfect child for her. She even has me fetching the paper or a laundry basket for her, it's not like it's a chore that was given to me, but instead I'll be walking by and she says, "Hey I need you to go get the paper for me" and there's nothing I can do. Some of my friends tell me, just tell her no, and I'm like, you don't get it, I'm not really allowed to tell her no, because it would upset her so much. She even frowns on me leaving the house for things except when she knows exactly where I'm going and why, and will pressure me into just staying put, so these days I hardly even leave the house because of her. I do really care about her, and that's why I put up with things about her that drive me crazy. On the other hand, my dad's so much of a control freak I've had to cut ties with him. Three years ago he did horrible things, my mom divorced him, and I ended up not speaking to him, but he tries to force his way back into my life. He sometimes says, "Well I'm your father so I have a right to... use your car whenever I want to, visit you whenever I want to, tell you to do something whenever I want to." My relationship with him isn't just damaged, but is gone after the way he's treated me. Just the last few months, first he came to my graduation after I specifically told him not to, then he pressured my mom into giving information about me, by refusing to tell her necessary financial information unless she told him some things about me first.

icarus_drowning 15y ago

I think the dichotomy between perceived empowerment and actual empowerment is interesting. Children who are allowed to do "whatever they want" seem empowered, but in actuality, they are disempowered by being deprived of necessary practice in learning important disciplines (patience, long-term planning, etc.) Actually empowering children involves giving them choices, yes, but within a framework that constrains them. "You have a choice to eat the candy now, but at a cost later" teaches a child to make long(er)-term decisions than "do whatever you want". This mirrors the actual experiences they will have later in life, where they will have freedom, but still be required to operate with the bounds of lawful society. (I can buy myself X now, but I will have to save later in order to pay my mortgage, etc.) By refusing to limit children by modeling the realities they will face later in life, adults teach children that consequences are fantasy, often to disastrous results when they grow up.

johnnyn 15y ago

I think the story at the end about speaking to your child with conviction and the right tone is spot on. I have a 20 month old daughter. I constantly struggle with this because I want to be nice even when saying 'no', but it doesn't take long to realize that being stern without being scary is the best balance. I realized that my 'no' when she opens the pantry door is totally without conviction and she doesn't respond at all. But my 'no' when she strays off the sidewalk and near the street is obviously much more stern and she knows I'm serious. The most difficult thing is saying 'no' with conviction when you just don't really care that much (like the pantry door).

MrKurtHaeusler 15y ago
I think you are doing it right, with different levels of conviction. If you give a really stern "no" just for something harmless like opening the pantry door, she might not react when you really mean it. In fact it might even be better just to let her in the pantry, and save the "no"s for when you really mean it.

Nogwater 15y ago

To focus on restaurant behavior, I'd be curious to know how much time the average French person spends at the table in a day, compared with the average American. I'm sure it varies a lot from family to family, but it seems like Americans (and I'm no exception) rush through their meals, while the French linger and socialize while eating. Maybe that has something to do with French kids being more well behaved in restaurants.

thibaut_barrere 15y ago
I don't have clear numbers, but I can tell that for us family meals are a moment to talk together; we usually don't hurry (father + mother both working at home here + 1 kid).
emixam 15y ago
We do stay for a long time at the table. At lunch it's usually 1 hour (even at work) and it can be much longer in the evening, 2 or more hours maybe if we're at a restaurant. When I'm at my parent's house, it's never less than an hour. French people tend to talk a lot when at a table!

edw519 15y ago

This isn't as much about place as it is about time and could have easily been entitled, "Why 1950s Parents Are Superior." We were raised in the U.S. in the 50s and 60s much like the French children in the article. We weren't treated like children, but like small adults. There were no children's menus in restaurants. If we wanted to go to out to eat, we dressed and acted properly and ate real food with our parents. If we wanted to go to little league, piano lessons, or anywhere else, we got off our butts and found a way to get there while Dad was at work and Mom was watching younger siblings. We walked to school from age 5. If we were late for dinner, we didn't eat. If we were late getting home at night, we didn't get to go out again. If we wanted money we got a job, not an allowance. If we misbehaved...I don't know what would happen. We didn't misbehave; we just knew better. Most of our cousins and friends were the same, with a few exceptions. That was just the way it was. Then somebody somewhere fucked it all up and now schools are surrounded by parents in minivans picking up special people who never really grow up. No wonder. The French aren't different, just late. Just give them a few more years and they'll fuck it all up, too.

thibaut_barrere 15y ago
Do you mean you believe that what you describe for 50s/60s matches what is happening currently in France? If so that's far from it, at least from the people I know here (and I know a couple :-). Children here aren't considered small adults, and there's no way (for most at least) they walk to school when aged 5 etc. I don't think (honestly) that Europe or France is just applying the same recipes years after the US; things are really different for some parts, not happening later IMO.
Avshalom 15y ago
The kids who grew up in the 50/60's and thought "this sucks" are the ones who "fucked it up." Apparently they were the super majority, having grown up in 80/90s I'm fairly glad they did too.
- deleted 15y ago
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- 15y ago

Aloisius 15y ago

I was what people today might call a "free range" child in the 80s. I interacted with my family mostly at meals and was left to my own devices from a very young age. I was not placated when I threw a tantrum or cried. I was responsible to get to school and back from the time I was 6 (nothing serious: a mile and a half). I made and packed my own school lunches from age 8 on. The line between my world and the adult's world was very clearly defined and it was clear that I had to make my own fun, but the parameters around what I was allowed to do were well defined as well. While I got into some mischief here and there, it had been drilled into me at a young age how a good person behaved and I emulated it. When I tell parents of how I grew up, the reaction almost without exception is complete horror. I have had several women try to console me. One woman told me that my emotional scars must run deep and gave me the number for a psychologist! Needless to say, I don't talk about it much these days. Now I don't know if how I grew up would be traumatic to other children. I do think that parents act like their children's entertainers/servants and try hard to ensure they like them or they're cool or, and this I'll never understand, try to be friends with them. I will say that it worked for me and I don't hate my family for doing it. Quite the opposite in fact.

bmj 15y ago
This is what we are trying to do with our kids (boys aged 8 and 6). They make their own lunches, generally entertain themselves, though we still have "family time," and do their share of chores aroubd the house. I think there is a tendency, however, among some parents to have their kids do everything for them, too. I've seen parents yell at their kids to come inside and a get snack for them. I think kids should be taught to contribute to the home economy, but treating them like little indentured servants is perhaps going a bit far. As far aa being "friends" with your kids, I think there's a narrow line to walk. I want my kids to trust me (and therefore talk to me), and I want to enjoy their company, too. There does need to be some sort of boundry there, though, lest you lose your authority.
- kellishaver 15y ago
  This is very similar to the way we're raising our daughter (9). She gets herself up and dressed in the morning and off to the buss top (too far to walk to school). We do things together, but it's not our job to entertain her. She finds her own entertainment, and often that means playing with other kids in the neighborhood - fine, so long as she's home by dinner. She knows if she's late she misses dinner and if that she misbehaves at someone's house, then that privileged of being able to come and go with the other kids in the neighborhood is gone. She has daily and weekly chores that she's expected to do. She doesn't get an allowance for that - it's just a normal part of contributing to the family duties, and if she wants something, she does extra chores to earn the money. She's a great kid, never have had a behavior problem out of her. I think part of the reason for that is in addition to just giving her a whole bunch of love, we also respect her and hold her to a standard that we know she's capable of. That's very much how I was raised, and I have a great relationship with my dad and a lot of respect for him. I hope this leads to a similar relationship with her, and so far it seems to be. It's working out. She does stupid kid things from time to time, like all kids do, but she's learning to think for herself and make good decisions, too. Proud of my kid. Last summer, though, I got a call from a neighbor down the street telling me that my daughter wasn't allowed to come down there and play with her kid anymore, unless I walked her down there, because it was too dangerous for my then 8 year old child to be walking down there by herself... Mind you, you can see their house from our front yard. I feel really badly for the little girl who lives in that house. She's 8 now, not allowed out of the yard, and has no other friends in the neighborhood.

tnuc 15y ago

The economist had review last week. A link for those that may be interested. http://www.economist.com/node/21543122 http://www.economist.com/node/21543122

ahoyhere 15y ago

I've found this true in most places in (continental) Europe. I spent 4 years living in Vienna, Austria and was initially shocked & then spoiled by how well-behaved the kids there are. It'd become simply the normal background for me, but I was reminded of it again when a friend visited between Christmas and New Year's and we went to a v. large thermal spa outside of Vienna and were surrounded by children at the indoor pool. She said, "Funny that there aren't any kids here." I said, "There are tons of them! Just look!" Not only were there at least 30 teenagers of various ages, there were more than 10 young children under 5, including one infant in arms. All were so calm and quiet that she didn't even know they were there. Not that the occasional toddler didn't try to run away from her parents -- I saw it happening -- but everything was chill. No screeching. No tantrums. No "COME BACK HERE!". It didn't stand out to me cuz I got used to it, but my friend was flabbergasted. Austrians love their kids and treat them kindly and with respect, but never do the kids get the idea that they are the entirety of the adults' world. (Which sounds harsh at first, but that kind of relationship is truly codependent and bad for everyone.)

arguesalot 15y ago

A previous article about how chinese mothers are better created quite a stir. Is there some sort of parenting crisis in the US that leads to this kind of soul-searching? (I m not in the US, so i'm curious to know)

billswift 15y ago
There is always a "parenting crisis" in the US. I remember hearing this sort of stuff when I was a kid, 40 years ago, and have seen books on "parenting" from as far back as the 1920s with the same sorts of stuff.
radikalus 15y ago
I'm currently working on a piece on why Chimpanzee mothers are superior.
colonel_panic 15y ago
The fact that the previous article created a stir is precisely why the WSJ published this one.

zobzu 15y ago

yeah exactly! its because you see they're french so they do it right! no one else tell their kids to say "thanks, please", and no one else dares to say no to whatever stupid things kids might want! Exactly. Only the French educate their children. Guess what. Half the people don't educate the children, half of them do. Or maybe it's 2/3. Who cares. The point is it has strictly nothing to do with being French. (I'm French.)

mturmon 15y ago
For the (American) readers of the article, France can be an imaginary place where the parents use special techniques (described fully in the author's book, conveniently on sale right over here), and everything is happy and wonderful. The part I liked about the sales job is the idea of supporting the child's autonomy ("Cadre means that kids have very firm limits about certain things -- that's the frame -- and that the parents strictly enforce these. But inside the cadre, French parents entrust their kids with quite a lot of freedom and autonomy.") France is that magical place where the boundary line between kids' autonomy and parental authority gets drawn in the perfect mutually satisfying place. (Not French, but love visiting France.)

Tichy 15y ago

"After about 10 minutes, Leo stopped trying to leave altogether." I think there is another possible explanation: by stopping to chase Leo, it stopped being a game for him. It might not have been her sterner "no" at all. Also I'd like to point out that the French are famous for putting their kids into kindergarden from the age of 3 months. From my perspective (dad of a 16 months old who is still at home) that seems rather cruel.

lysium 15y ago
I was also wondering why the kindergarten aspect was completely missing in the article, as if it did not happen. It could well be that French children do not see their parents so often and are ready to do whatever is needed to have a comfortable atmosphere during the few hours they see them, in particular if their parents don't play those games.
- watmough 15y ago
  The cynical might suspect that the idea of providing state-subsidized kindergarten to the very young, in order to promote happier children and less-stressed parents, might be something that wouldn't make it into the WSJ.

abalashov 15y ago

(I'm a first-generation Russian immigrant, raised by Russian parents predominantly in the US.) There is no question, in my experience, that the number one problem in American parenting psychology is the idea that you need to always respond to the kids' immediate needs and to give them attention. It prevents them from learning how to intellectually stimulate themselves, or be alone for any meaningful period of time, both of which are absolutely indispensable survival adaptations for childhood and adult life. The best parenting for the average American parent I've run into is less parenting. I also have the sneaking suspicion that people delay or refrain from having kids here more due to the implied premise that having them is a life-consuming ordeal that totally, completely dominates adult consciousness. It shouldn't do that. Yes, having kids changes your life, but you're still you. You do not live at the pleasure of your child. When hanging out with adult friends with kids, it absolutely astounds me that they end up repeating the same sentence ten times because their kid keeps interrupting them, in a tireless quest for attention. If I did that, my parents would've belted me silly. I guess that's "child abuse" here. Either way, aside from a good spanking, the best thing my parents ever did for me was ignore me a lot. I probably would have turned out to be diagnosed with "ADD" or some other claptrap if they hadn't.

LearnYouALisp 15y ago
Ну ты даёшь! Ж)
LearnYouALisp 15y ago
Just so you know, I appreciated your comment (since that expression can be taken either way). Maybe someone didn't like the fact that it was in Russian.
forcefsck 15y ago
Just because you mentioned (the totally unnecessary) beating, doesn't rent the rest of your comment false. In case you get a "but beatig is wrong" reply.
pnathan 15y ago
I have never seen the problem with well-disciplined spanking.

sshah 15y ago

French parents learned to ignore, say no to their kids from their parents who learned from their parents and so on. In other words - it might be in their culture. I grew up in India and do find a lot of similarities in my upbringing - our egos were not always served, maybe 30% of times. We had family in US and I noticed - kid's egos in their families were served 90% of the times. As mentioned in the article, kids were ruling their life...whereas in my family it was the other way around. Did it make any difference in the lives of those kids or mine - that's a different topic. My point here is maybe American parents were told to over parent. By whom - not sure, but could be babies r us, or mattelle sponsored studies, or ads on TV to promote products, etc.

jf271 15y ago
I think that saying no to kids is one of the most important things you can do to help them. Too many of the kids my kids grew up with never heard the word no during their childhood because their parents wanted to give them everything they did have while growing up. They ended up being spoiled brats and got even worse once the school system in the USA got a hold of them and told them what unique individuals they were. Disappointment is a part of life and how to handle it is something that should be learned early in life.

zabar 15y ago

French here. Indeed the view of the articles seems idealistic, but it rings true in lots of aspects. If you are interested in learning more about the cultural differences especially around children education, there is a great book written by a French psychoanalyst, now living in the US called l'Autre rive. You can download it for free in French or English on his website http://www.pbaudry.com/ http://www.pbaudry.com/ I read it a few years ago before moving to New York, and from my experience, most of it is true. I found it interesting to put words on things we don't necessary noticed and try to find the reasons behind them.

splat 15y ago

I would be curious if one could quantify this by perhaps traveling on several domestic flights in the US and in France of similar lengths and record how often a child cries to see if there is a statistically significant difference between the two countries.

sakura_k 15y ago

Ugh. So many parents in the US believe to the core of their selves that their children are child-emperors, too rare and delicate to suffer the torture of being denied a single whim. Not to get too "get off my lawn", but when I was a kid, kids didn't rule public spaces the way they do today. Many parents not only won't tell their kids "no" under any circumstances, they freak out if anybody else asks their precious spawn to stop kicking them on airplanes, running into their legs with shopping carts, or shooting BB guns at their home's windows. Also, get off my lawn.

hcarvalhoalves 15y ago

Very interesting essay. I'm not sure if this is a "French get parenting right" as much as it is "American parenting is screwed up". I'm from Brazil myself, and it's worrying to see that, together with the latest economic changes (higher income), parenting is getting more distant to what she describes to happen in France, and is starting to shaping up the same problems seen in USA. I from a 80's generation and had an education close to what she describes, but nowadays parents work overhours to try to afford an expensive lifestyle, kids are raised by nannies and they basically play videogame the whole day. I'm sure this lifestyle doesn't allow kids to educate themselves with so many distractions and instant gratification around, and in an atmosphere that demands so much from parents (working overhours instead of enjoying the family, having time free for friends, dinners, etc.).

gnat 15y ago

I much prefer the Guardian's "Digested Read" version of this book: http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2012/jan/29/digested-read-french-children-dont-throw http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2012/jan/29/digested-read-fr...

ig1 15y ago

The problem is that well-behaved doesn't equate to better children. To quote the YC application form "Please tell us about the time you most successfully hacked some (non-computer) system to your advantage." Creativity, rule-bending and being outspoken are often hallmarks of innovators and entrepreneurs. But obviously patience and obedience are virtues as well. Culturally we have to make trade-offs deciding which of these we want to encourage in kids and which we don't. It's silly to pretend there's just one way that's better across the board. TMTOWTDI.

evincarofautumn 15y ago
I agree with the sentiment (TMTOWTDI), but I also think that it’s hard to stifle an interested mind. My parents let me alone to do what I pleased when I was little (play with LEGO, mostly) and that self-sufficiency carried on. Later, I wanted to program computers, so they let me. I talked on shady IRC channels learning about network security and operating systems, and that was fine. The important thing is that there were boundaries—no giving away personal information, for example—and the ever-present ability to ask for help if I really needed it. Perhaps it’s not about refraining entirely from breaking the rules, but rather about learning which rules are okay to break.
nooop 15y ago
You are borderline to the false dichotomy. Of course "well-behaved doesn't equate to better", (except if all other things are being equal), but having well-behaved children don't preclude them from being creative and so over. Agitated is not the synonymous of entrepreneurial!

JoeAltmaier 15y ago

My boys grew up this way, in Iowa, in the 90's and 00's. Maybe it has more to do with population density, having a parent at home and a community with shared values. Anyway we ended up with 3 Eagle Scouts, one now a veteran, one a CS graduate from CMU and one a 3-time all-stater in cello. Just regular Iowa country kids. You could trust them with anything - your car, your life savings, your girlfriend. They learned to work hard at a young age (6-8) at home, at church and on their Uncle's farm; to get themselves organized for school from the start; to clean a bathroom and do dishes. We never talked down to them. Their friends work hard with a smile, want nothing more than to be treated as an adult. Its easier I guess when their friends share the same goals, the lessons seem natural and normal. We did this consciously, left the big city when they were old enough to feel limited by sidewalks and malls, and bought land in Iowa where I grew up. I don't think that's all necessary or possible for everyone. But it sure helped!

shapeshed 15y ago

This is a good example of creating a utopia to explore everything that is disliked about a status quo. The article is almost entirely anecdotal with little offered to back up supposition and conjecture.

sunahsuh 15y ago

I've been reading up recently on dog training since I'm watching my parents' unruly dog for a few weeks and it's remarkable how similar the keys to training a well-behaved dog are to how the french treat their kids... I'm not entirely sure how to feel about that, hah.

charlieok 15y ago

Why is this trending on Hacker News?

4th_paradigm 15y ago

french superiority? this article is based on the anecdotes of an out-of-touch expat, who has spent too much time in the company of privileged Parisians. last time i was in France the general atmosphere was similar to this music video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FU7bFpPJiww http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FU7bFpPJiww, teenagers burning down their own city etc. heh.