4 ms·

I also think he's talking about tools where inferior means build quality vs. performance. You can go buy a bunch of cheap wrenches from Harbor Freight and they'

by gav 3y ago

I also think he's talking about tools where inferior means build quality vs. performance. You can go buy a bunch of cheap wrenches from Harbor Freight and they'll be just fine compared to Snap-On. > Quality is an issue, true. But for beginning makers there is often no cheaper alternative. Back in the day I’d “test buy” a tool from HFT and then if it was useful I’d invest in a more substantial version. Also browsing their aisles is a singular pleasure. https://twitter.com/donttrythis/status/941149124497305600 https://twitter.com/donttrythis/status/941149124497305600

Baeocystin 3y ago
Also worth noting that often the best approach to take is that the tool itself is a consumable. $19 Harbor Freight grinders won't last as long as $150+ ones, but the ~7 you can buy for the same price will outlast even the most expensive one several times over!
- dandelany 3y ago
  Assuming you place no value on your own time & frustration…
  - Baeocystin 3y ago
    FWIW, I learned this approach while working in the trades as a welder. You have consumables in stock and ready to go, and that includes extra grinders. Some tools you do take the time and effort to really take care of, of course, but a lot more than you might think are in the cattle not pet category of things.
    - crimsontech 3y ago
      Similar for professional kitchens. They use cheap pots, pans, knives, etc. then replace them when needed. No special Damascus steel knives and copper ply pans, just functional cost effective easy to replace stuff.
      - LegitShady 3y ago
        ...all the professional kitchens I've seen use very nice professional kitchen equipment. They don't use damascus steel knives because that doesn't offer any advantage in function, but they aren't using cheap anything. Pots, pans, and knives work for a very long time and it doesn't make sense spending little to not get good ones. You can't get heavy guage stainless pots and pans for cheap, ply or no ply. The knives are the most used tool in food prep - they spend money on quality steel and good ergonomics so they dont have to work harder than they need to. In some places people bring their own knives.
        crimsontech 3y ago
        When you sharpen a knife several times a day it’s going to wear out fast, even if it’s expensive. Pots and pans get bashed about and dropped, which damages even expensive pans. Maybe it’s different in the UK but we never used fancy knives or cookware in the kitchens I’ve worked.
        LegitShady 3y ago
        thats why you use quality knives that need sharpening less often. You still sharpen them because that makes the work take less time and effort. They're not fancy they're just high end. They're not damascus steel because that doesn't offer any actual advantages. Thats why you can get a shitty henkels knife for $50 anywhere you look, but the actual zwilling pro chef's knife is 3x the price - because you don't need to sharpen it as often - it keeps the edge for longer. It's not a question of fancy. Regular looking pans and pots made from ultra thick gauge stainless steel dont look fancy, but they survive being dropped on the ground without issue. You have a big miscomprehension if you think expensive = fancy. Not fancy, rather ultra utilitarian but high quality.
    - moonchrome 3y ago
      I'm trying to learn welding/metal working so I can combine it with woodworking for furniture making. Meaning I know shit about tools compared to a professional. But I've bought two grinders and have an ancient cheap one from father in-law. My cheap Metabo is relatively quiet and smooth. Cheap Lidl one is loud and jerky. Ancient one I've just thrown away at how bad it was to use. Recently I had to grind some tubing for > hour and my wrists felt it even with the Metabo entry level. Supposedly the pro versions have antivibration, better balanced, speed control, etc. My point being if I was using this 5 days a week for >1h I'd invest in ease of use/comfort/safety - no ? I'd probably have a few throwaway ones for backup.
      - Baeocystin 3y ago
        My suggestions- First, buy a separate handle that you like the feel of. They're dirt simple to swap around between tools. If you're in a large shop, make sure it stays in your lockbox overnight so that it doesn't grow feet. Second, although honestly more important, make sure you are using the right wheel for the job, with the right pressure (lighter than almost everything thinks), and stay focused on using either the edge or the face, depending on type. This will keep things smoother, slow disc changes, and improve safety by reducing the risk of disc shatter. Detailed explanation: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_n0TSF1i5os&t=162s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_n0TSF1i5os&t=162s Hope that helps. [edit]- When it comes to welding, I strongly recommend learning stick first, even before MIG. It gives you much better practice learning how to control the puddle without spewing metal everywhere. Bonus points in that it is also very inexpensive, and the welds themselves are usually stronger than MIG. Only disadvantage is speed, but for the types of projects you mentioned, that's not much of an issue. This guy's channel is great: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pMtqDWUpJds https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pMtqDWUpJds
- mwbajor 3y ago
  Bad tools or consumables break at the most inopportune times and yes, in most cases bad = cheap. People like to compare to Snap-On but forget that Snap-On subsidizes their delivery service with the tool cost. Also, yes, Snap-Ons are in fact that much better than HF tools in almost all cases. Its bad when a $9 HF torque wrench breaks at 8:45PM on a Sunday night when you're under your car putting the transmission back on. Or a cheap pot-metal screw strips when you have a manufacturing deadline approaching. I've been in the electronics manufacturing industry for 17 years now and in almost all cases, "buy the best you can afford" is the better mantra. That doesn't go bankrupt over a $1500 dollar Snap-On wrench set, but if you buy the HF stuff, you will spend $1500 in time using their warranty.
  - Breza 3y ago
    I have a bunch of my grandpa's professional tools from the '30s-'60s. Other than a motor failing in his electric drill, I've never had problems.
  - Baeocystin 3y ago
    I think your torque wrench example gets to the point of what I was trying to get at. My torque wrenches are Matco, as are my 'good' sockets. And I have a nice set of Mitutoyo calipers in my box for when I need the precision. But for an awful lot of the regular work, it's Harbor Freight magnets, HF welding blankets and soapstone, HF clamps, HF grinders. You learn what works best for your dollar, and very often, it's erring not on the side of the more expensive stuff.
- fuzzfactor 3y ago
  I've had a number of soldering irons over the decades and some of them have been the bare-bones kind. I have needed to make the most of whatever was available. The cheap small soldering "pencil" irons like they had at Radio Shack were insidiously bad because of the crummy solder that came in the package, and their crummy store brand solder. I would use only Multicore or Kester solder. Much bigger difference than automatic temperature control. These are small irons but they still get hotter than the ideal temperature that most long-term assemblers prefer to work at. At least the iron does, but maybe not the tip, especially if it's not screwed in really tight, or if a lot of oxidation has built up in the iron threaded socket the tip screws into. I used to grab the tip at the base with the curved jaws of a wire stripper and screw it in real tight whether hot or cold. Starting when new so no corrosion has a chance to build up. Different tips will end up with different tip temperatures, but when you've got one of these going properly you can be just as effective as with a controlled unit. The tips are copper with chrome plating which can be a thin layer, but when it oxidizes it gets more of a sheen rather than building up a crust like plain copper. Solder won't want to stick to the chrome too easy, and once it gets oxidized it's even worse. And the oxidized metal will not transfer heat properly to the work. For splicing new pure copper wires using a temp-controlled iron, it is common to heat the copper joint with the tip until the solder melts and behaves like mercury as it soaks well into the joint. This often fails with antique wires since the old conductor has an oxidation layer on the strands so the solder will not wet them. Things like this are best carefully tinned individually before joining, using additional cleaning and flux if necessary. Tinning the new tip is the first thing. Lots of users will wait until the iron heats up too much and try to apply a bit of solder after there is already a thin oxidation layer on the chrome tip. I like to get some solder on the point to wet the chrome as soon as it gets hot enough the first time, then unplug the iron and suspend the tip downward with a fraction of a gram of solder obscuring the point as it hardens. It will really dig into that substrate as it solidifies, and in operation the very tip is the part you are going to have to keep constantly wet with fresh solder, and basically use some liquid metal hanging there to transfer heat more effectively to the work than you can from contact with a non-wet tip of the same temperature. The shaft of the tip will become more and more oxidized, and if the point gets like that you might as well sand it down, most likely down to the copper. Copper tins real easy but it dissolves in the solder much faster than the chrome so the tip will be much more sacrificial as you continue rinsing it with fresh solder when needed so only the freshest non-oxidized solder will come in contact with your work. With new tips or not, properly sized to the work, stuffing a PCB should not require more flux than there is in the core of the solder. Unplug it when you're not actually using it, they do not really take that long to heat up when you need it again. They just sit there oxidizing otherwise. Whatever your approach, you need to be comfortable with handling hot liquid metal to some extent.
nibbleshifter 3y ago
Yeah, the context is important. Unfortunately the context went missing as soon as the "rule" started making it around hacker/maker internet.
midoridensha 3y ago
>You can go buy a bunch of cheap wrenches from Harbor Freight and they'll be just fine compared to Snap-On. Harbor Freight wrenches are actually really good, and an excellent value for the money. I've even met pro mechanics that used them. Harbor Freight power tools are a different deal though.
- mindcrime 3y ago
  FWIW, Harbor Freight has only relatively recently made a concerted effort to start selling higher quality stuff and to shirk the "only sells cheap junk" label. And even now, there's a lot of variance (in both price and quality) across their various brands. The Icon stuff is pretty good. Maybe not quite on par with Snap-On, but when you consider the price difference, probably a better "bang for your buck." But the Pittsburgh stuff is a few steps down the quality ladder. Some of the other newer brands they've rolled out (Quinn, etc.) I'm less sure about.
  - mwbajor 3y ago
    They came out with decent slip jaw pliers that were almost as expensive as real channel locks for about the same quality. At that point, the question becomes "do I trust a new brand?" instead of "do I buy lower quality?"

by gav 3y ago

Baeocystin 3y ago

Also worth noting that often the best approach to take is that the tool itself is a consumable. $19 Harbor Freight grinders won't last as long as $150+ ones, but the ~7 you can buy for the same price will outlast even the most expensive one several times over!

dandelany 3y ago
Assuming you place no value on your own time & frustration…
- Baeocystin 3y ago
  FWIW, I learned this approach while working in the trades as a welder. You have consumables in stock and ready to go, and that includes extra grinders. Some tools you do take the time and effort to really take care of, of course, but a lot more than you might think are in the cattle not pet category of things.
  - crimsontech 3y ago
    Similar for professional kitchens. They use cheap pots, pans, knives, etc. then replace them when needed. No special Damascus steel knives and copper ply pans, just functional cost effective easy to replace stuff.
    - LegitShady 3y ago
      ...all the professional kitchens I've seen use very nice professional kitchen equipment. They don't use damascus steel knives because that doesn't offer any advantage in function, but they aren't using cheap anything. Pots, pans, and knives work for a very long time and it doesn't make sense spending little to not get good ones. You can't get heavy guage stainless pots and pans for cheap, ply or no ply. The knives are the most used tool in food prep - they spend money on quality steel and good ergonomics so they dont have to work harder than they need to. In some places people bring their own knives.
      - crimsontech 3y ago
        When you sharpen a knife several times a day it’s going to wear out fast, even if it’s expensive. Pots and pans get bashed about and dropped, which damages even expensive pans. Maybe it’s different in the UK but we never used fancy knives or cookware in the kitchens I’ve worked.
        LegitShady 3y ago
        thats why you use quality knives that need sharpening less often. You still sharpen them because that makes the work take less time and effort. They're not fancy they're just high end. They're not damascus steel because that doesn't offer any actual advantages. Thats why you can get a shitty henkels knife for $50 anywhere you look, but the actual zwilling pro chef's knife is 3x the price - because you don't need to sharpen it as often - it keeps the edge for longer. It's not a question of fancy. Regular looking pans and pots made from ultra thick gauge stainless steel dont look fancy, but they survive being dropped on the ground without issue. You have a big miscomprehension if you think expensive = fancy. Not fancy, rather ultra utilitarian but high quality.
  - moonchrome 3y ago
    I'm trying to learn welding/metal working so I can combine it with woodworking for furniture making. Meaning I know shit about tools compared to a professional. But I've bought two grinders and have an ancient cheap one from father in-law. My cheap Metabo is relatively quiet and smooth. Cheap Lidl one is loud and jerky. Ancient one I've just thrown away at how bad it was to use. Recently I had to grind some tubing for > hour and my wrists felt it even with the Metabo entry level. Supposedly the pro versions have antivibration, better balanced, speed control, etc. My point being if I was using this 5 days a week for >1h I'd invest in ease of use/comfort/safety - no ? I'd probably have a few throwaway ones for backup.
    - Baeocystin 3y ago
      My suggestions- First, buy a separate handle that you like the feel of. They're dirt simple to swap around between tools. If you're in a large shop, make sure it stays in your lockbox overnight so that it doesn't grow feet. Second, although honestly more important, make sure you are using the right wheel for the job, with the right pressure (lighter than almost everything thinks), and stay focused on using either the edge or the face, depending on type. This will keep things smoother, slow disc changes, and improve safety by reducing the risk of disc shatter. Detailed explanation: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_n0TSF1i5os&t=162s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_n0TSF1i5os&t=162s Hope that helps. [edit]- When it comes to welding, I strongly recommend learning stick first, even before MIG. It gives you much better practice learning how to control the puddle without spewing metal everywhere. Bonus points in that it is also very inexpensive, and the welds themselves are usually stronger than MIG. Only disadvantage is speed, but for the types of projects you mentioned, that's not much of an issue. This guy's channel is great: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pMtqDWUpJds https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pMtqDWUpJds
mwbajor 3y ago
Bad tools or consumables break at the most inopportune times and yes, in most cases bad = cheap. People like to compare to Snap-On but forget that Snap-On subsidizes their delivery service with the tool cost. Also, yes, Snap-Ons are in fact that much better than HF tools in almost all cases. Its bad when a $9 HF torque wrench breaks at 8:45PM on a Sunday night when you're under your car putting the transmission back on. Or a cheap pot-metal screw strips when you have a manufacturing deadline approaching. I've been in the electronics manufacturing industry for 17 years now and in almost all cases, "buy the best you can afford" is the better mantra. That doesn't go bankrupt over a $1500 dollar Snap-On wrench set, but if you buy the HF stuff, you will spend $1500 in time using their warranty.
- Breza 3y ago
  I have a bunch of my grandpa's professional tools from the '30s-'60s. Other than a motor failing in his electric drill, I've never had problems.
- Baeocystin 3y ago
  I think your torque wrench example gets to the point of what I was trying to get at. My torque wrenches are Matco, as are my 'good' sockets. And I have a nice set of Mitutoyo calipers in my box for when I need the precision. But for an awful lot of the regular work, it's Harbor Freight magnets, HF welding blankets and soapstone, HF clamps, HF grinders. You learn what works best for your dollar, and very often, it's erring not on the side of the more expensive stuff.
fuzzfactor 3y ago
I've had a number of soldering irons over the decades and some of them have been the bare-bones kind. I have needed to make the most of whatever was available. The cheap small soldering "pencil" irons like they had at Radio Shack were insidiously bad because of the crummy solder that came in the package, and their crummy store brand solder. I would use only Multicore or Kester solder. Much bigger difference than automatic temperature control. These are small irons but they still get hotter than the ideal temperature that most long-term assemblers prefer to work at. At least the iron does, but maybe not the tip, especially if it's not screwed in really tight, or if a lot of oxidation has built up in the iron threaded socket the tip screws into. I used to grab the tip at the base with the curved jaws of a wire stripper and screw it in real tight whether hot or cold. Starting when new so no corrosion has a chance to build up. Different tips will end up with different tip temperatures, but when you've got one of these going properly you can be just as effective as with a controlled unit. The tips are copper with chrome plating which can be a thin layer, but when it oxidizes it gets more of a sheen rather than building up a crust like plain copper. Solder won't want to stick to the chrome too easy, and once it gets oxidized it's even worse. And the oxidized metal will not transfer heat properly to the work. For splicing new pure copper wires using a temp-controlled iron, it is common to heat the copper joint with the tip until the solder melts and behaves like mercury as it soaks well into the joint. This often fails with antique wires since the old conductor has an oxidation layer on the strands so the solder will not wet them. Things like this are best carefully tinned individually before joining, using additional cleaning and flux if necessary. Tinning the new tip is the first thing. Lots of users will wait until the iron heats up too much and try to apply a bit of solder after there is already a thin oxidation layer on the chrome tip. I like to get some solder on the point to wet the chrome as soon as it gets hot enough the first time, then unplug the iron and suspend the tip downward with a fraction of a gram of solder obscuring the point as it hardens. It will really dig into that substrate as it solidifies, and in operation the very tip is the part you are going to have to keep constantly wet with fresh solder, and basically use some liquid metal hanging there to transfer heat more effectively to the work than you can from contact with a non-wet tip of the same temperature. The shaft of the tip will become more and more oxidized, and if the point gets like that you might as well sand it down, most likely down to the copper. Copper tins real easy but it dissolves in the solder much faster than the chrome so the tip will be much more sacrificial as you continue rinsing it with fresh solder when needed so only the freshest non-oxidized solder will come in contact with your work. With new tips or not, properly sized to the work, stuffing a PCB should not require more flux than there is in the core of the solder. Unplug it when you're not actually using it, they do not really take that long to heat up when you need it again. They just sit there oxidizing otherwise. Whatever your approach, you need to be comfortable with handling hot liquid metal to some extent.

nibbleshifter 3y ago

Yeah, the context is important. Unfortunately the context went missing as soon as the "rule" started making it around hacker/maker internet.

midoridensha 3y ago

>You can go buy a bunch of cheap wrenches from Harbor Freight and they'll be just fine compared to Snap-On. Harbor Freight wrenches are actually really good, and an excellent value for the money. I've even met pro mechanics that used them. Harbor Freight power tools are a different deal though.

mindcrime 3y ago
FWIW, Harbor Freight has only relatively recently made a concerted effort to start selling higher quality stuff and to shirk the "only sells cheap junk" label. And even now, there's a lot of variance (in both price and quality) across their various brands. The Icon stuff is pretty good. Maybe not quite on par with Snap-On, but when you consider the price difference, probably a better "bang for your buck." But the Pittsburgh stuff is a few steps down the quality ladder. Some of the other newer brands they've rolled out (Quinn, etc.) I'm less sure about.
- mwbajor 3y ago
  They came out with decent slip jaw pliers that were almost as expensive as real channel locks for about the same quality. At that point, the question becomes "do I trust a new brand?" instead of "do I buy lower quality?"