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> And CO2 emissions are being fixed by switching from gas cars to EVs. Not reall, rail is 9 times more energy efficient than road vechicles. Thats why its chea

> And CO2 emissions are being fixed by switching from gas cars to EVs. Not reall, rail is 9 times more energy efficient than road vechicles. Thats why its cheaper to have a diesel locomotove move freight than to pour the same diesel into trucks. The whole reason rail exists is thsa its the most efficient form of tranportation on land.

bluGill 4y ago
There are a lot of assumptions in the idea that trains are more efficient than road vehicles. Trains tend to carry more heavy bulk goods like coal, if they had more light things the numbers would change. Trains get a lot of efficiency from running very long trains, but that only works out when you have a lot of things going the same way, if you had smaller trains from each warehouse (which now is done by truck) that would reduce th efficiency. Yes trains have some efficiency advantages, but in similar service the difference is small. You only get those advantages when you use trains for things that trucks cannot do at all.
- mikepurvis 4y ago
  The very long trains of mostly goods like coal are not an inevitability, though— it's a result of rail companies implementing PSR in response to some pretty specific incentives, see: https://www.nytimes.com/2022/10/09/opinion/business-economics/freight-train-mismanagement.html https://www.nytimes.com/2022/10/09/opinion/business-economic... A number of YouTube video essays argue the sides of this as well, here's one based around Sen. Sanders confronting a rail CEO in the wake of the recent Ohio derailment: https://youtu.be/e4w0q5NzCwA https://youtu.be/e4w0q5NzCwA
cyberax 4y ago
> Not reall, rail is 9 times more energy efficient than road vechicles. If you're hauling coal at 35 mph. For people-moving application it's not that more effective: https://ourworldindata.org/travel-carbon-footprint https://ourworldindata.org/travel-carbon-footprint
- adgjlsfhk1 4y ago
  Your link still gives 5x more efficient.
  - cyberax 4y ago
    Look at "medium electric vehicle" - 53g/km versus 41g/km for national rail.
    - Symbiote 4y ago
      That's comparing new cars (all EVs are fairly new) to the full range of passenger rail, including 40-year-old diesel trains trundling around Wales. Look at "Eurostar", which is a not-even-that-new high speed electric train: 6g/km. Though the calculation probably also takes account of the number of people on the train, and Eurostar will have better utilisation than average. (NB coal and ore is moved at about 60mph in the UK, to avoid slowing other trains.)
      - cyberax 4y ago
        > Look at "Eurostar", which is a not-even-that-new high speed electric train: 6g/km. The issue is in the overhead. It's the same for international/domestic flights. Long-distance trains are more efficient than local trains, because they can be longer (more cars) and don't have to slow down/accelerate all the time.
        adgjlsfhk1 4y ago
        the problem is that cars have a much worse form of overhead: parking. A rail line that transfers 1M people's commutes per day doesn't use up any space in the city that people commute to. If the same 1M people commute by car, you end up needing roughly 15 square kilometers just for the parking.
        Symbiote 4y ago
        The Eurostar train is recovering braking energy to feed back into the grid. Most of the trains in the general figure are older and cannot do this.

bluGill 4y ago

There are a lot of assumptions in the idea that trains are more efficient than road vehicles. Trains tend to carry more heavy bulk goods like coal, if they had more light things the numbers would change. Trains get a lot of efficiency from running very long trains, but that only works out when you have a lot of things going the same way, if you had smaller trains from each warehouse (which now is done by truck) that would reduce th efficiency. Yes trains have some efficiency advantages, but in similar service the difference is small. You only get those advantages when you use trains for things that trucks cannot do at all.

mikepurvis 4y ago
The very long trains of mostly goods like coal are not an inevitability, though— it's a result of rail companies implementing PSR in response to some pretty specific incentives, see: https://www.nytimes.com/2022/10/09/opinion/business-economics/freight-train-mismanagement.html https://www.nytimes.com/2022/10/09/opinion/business-economic... A number of YouTube video essays argue the sides of this as well, here's one based around Sen. Sanders confronting a rail CEO in the wake of the recent Ohio derailment: https://youtu.be/e4w0q5NzCwA https://youtu.be/e4w0q5NzCwA

cyberax 4y ago

> Not reall, rail is 9 times more energy efficient than road vechicles. If you're hauling coal at 35 mph. For people-moving application it's not that more effective: https://ourworldindata.org/travel-carbon-footprint https://ourworldindata.org/travel-carbon-footprint

adgjlsfhk1 4y ago
Your link still gives 5x more efficient.
- cyberax 4y ago
  Look at "medium electric vehicle" - 53g/km versus 41g/km for national rail.
  - Symbiote 4y ago
    That's comparing new cars (all EVs are fairly new) to the full range of passenger rail, including 40-year-old diesel trains trundling around Wales. Look at "Eurostar", which is a not-even-that-new high speed electric train: 6g/km. Though the calculation probably also takes account of the number of people on the train, and Eurostar will have better utilisation than average. (NB coal and ore is moved at about 60mph in the UK, to avoid slowing other trains.)
    - cyberax 4y ago
      > Look at "Eurostar", which is a not-even-that-new high speed electric train: 6g/km. The issue is in the overhead. It's the same for international/domestic flights. Long-distance trains are more efficient than local trains, because they can be longer (more cars) and don't have to slow down/accelerate all the time.
      - adgjlsfhk1 4y ago
        the problem is that cars have a much worse form of overhead: parking. A rail line that transfers 1M people's commutes per day doesn't use up any space in the city that people commute to. If the same 1M people commute by car, you end up needing roughly 15 square kilometers just for the parking.
      - Symbiote 4y ago
        The Eurostar train is recovering braking energy to feed back into the grid. Most of the trains in the general figure are older and cannot do this.