4 ms·

I'm in AA at the moment and AA doesn't claim to be a scientific method for staying off alcohol. It's full of religion! TFA is a giant strawman.

by davedx 4y ago

giraffe_lady 4y ago
I think that's one of the practical problems both with AA itself and with criticisms of it. It occupies this space in the cultural milieu as the main or even only system to address alcoholism. You have judges sending drunk drivers & domestic abusers to AA and shit, atheists in there freaking out needing help they're not gonna get because they didn't know what they were getting into and the steps very clearly are not for them. I would recommend AA to someone who is already or wants to be religious. It has many or all of the characteristics of a religion in its own right, and the emotional stance of seeking help from god is an explicit prerequisite. AA itself doesn't even think AA is the only approach that works. The writings are very clear that other ways work for many people, and if one works for you you should prefer it because AA is exhausting, endless, and humiliating. That is part of why it works for those it works for, but if you can find another way you'll have a better time.
- ChrisMarshallNY 4y ago
  > exhausting, endless, and humiliating. That is part of why it works for those it works for, but if you can find another way you'll have a better time. I see what you did, there. I think the word you are looking for is "humbling." Completely different animal from "humiliating." It's not "exhausting," either. Not sure where that came from. > you'll have a better time. Not sure I'd find agreement with that statement. Life is really, really good.
  - giraffe_lady 4y ago
    Of all the places I comment online this is the only one where I'm routinely told I meant to say something other than what I said. I used to think I was just an unclear writer but it continues to only happen on HN. Anyway I'm not anti-AA, I've been in it for years and am happy with it. I've also engaged extensively with what I perceive to be its limitations and constraints. I said what I meant to say and I meant what I said. I meant humiliating. There are recovery programs that emphasize your courage and strength in confronting a highly stigmatized mental illness, that encourage reflection on the routine frailty of the human mind, its susceptibility to this sort of failure, the capriciousness of who falls into addiction and who doesn't. Does that sound like AA to you? AA encourages you to think of yourself as permanently faulty in an irreparable way and to choose your actions with that fault in mind. This is rather practical in preventing relapse, but it's not a resounding message of self-actualization. The "confession of sins" in steps 5, 8, 9 are inevitably going to be experienced as shameful and yes, humiliating. This is effective! It's a powerful deterrent to that behavior in the future. I meant exhausting. There is never a point in AA where you are cured, where you are free of AA, free of the burden of thinking of yourself as an alcoholic. Again this is very pragmatic: it reminds you that readdiction is always possible, it keeps you from letting your guard down even years into recovery. It also means the vigilance is eternal, exhausting. Everyone who has grappled with addiction agrees that sobriety is a better way of life. But that doesn't mean AA is the only way to get to it, or the most pleasant among the options. "We thought we could find an easier, softer way." We could not, but some others can, and those who can will have an easier, softer time than we do in here.
    - ChrisMarshallNY 4y ago
      My apologies, then. I do understand your point. I may have a bit to say, but you know, that ol' Tradition Eleven, and whatnot. Just be aware that there are others, on their own journeys. I found that using was exhausting. I don't think that having addiction under control, is exhausting at all. Others have far worse crosses to bear, and all the good things that have come, have more than made up for any issues that I may have, as a result of a .44 magnum, pointed at my head, all the time. It's definitely "endless," but so are many things. I've found that the Fourth, Fifth, Sixth, Seventh, Eighth, Ninth, and Tenth Steps are about losing the shame of of active addiction. In fact, their most practical use, is to have us become so comfortable with our pasts, that we can routinely recount them, to people looking for help. What It Was Like, What Happened, and What It's Like, Now. That "What it Was Like" part is real important. If we're not comfortable telling some shaking newcomer that we used to rob church poorboxes, then we're kinda useless. But what do I know? I'm just some Internet rando. I wouldn't have even written this, if this story hadn't been shoved to the back of the broom closet in record time. Have a great day.

I'm in AA at the moment and AA doesn't claim to be a scientific method for staying off alcohol. It's full of religion! TFA is a giant strawman.

by davedx 4y ago

I'm in AA at the moment and AA doesn't claim to be a scientific method for staying off alcohol. It's full of religion! TFA is a giant strawman.

giraffe_lady 4y ago

I think that's one of the practical problems both with AA itself and with criticisms of it. It occupies this space in the cultural milieu as the main or even only system to address alcoholism. You have judges sending drunk drivers & domestic abusers to AA and shit, atheists in there freaking out needing help they're not gonna get because they didn't know what they were getting into and the steps very clearly are not for them. I would recommend AA to someone who is already or wants to be religious. It has many or all of the characteristics of a religion in its own right, and the emotional stance of seeking help from god is an explicit prerequisite. AA itself doesn't even think AA is the only approach that works. The writings are very clear that other ways work for many people, and if one works for you you should prefer it because AA is exhausting, endless, and humiliating. That is part of why it works for those it works for, but if you can find another way you'll have a better time.

ChrisMarshallNY 4y ago
> exhausting, endless, and humiliating. That is part of why it works for those it works for, but if you can find another way you'll have a better time. I see what you did, there. I think the word you are looking for is "humbling." Completely different animal from "humiliating." It's not "exhausting," either. Not sure where that came from. > you'll have a better time. Not sure I'd find agreement with that statement. Life is really, really good.
- giraffe_lady 4y ago
  Of all the places I comment online this is the only one where I'm routinely told I meant to say something other than what I said. I used to think I was just an unclear writer but it continues to only happen on HN. Anyway I'm not anti-AA, I've been in it for years and am happy with it. I've also engaged extensively with what I perceive to be its limitations and constraints. I said what I meant to say and I meant what I said. I meant humiliating. There are recovery programs that emphasize your courage and strength in confronting a highly stigmatized mental illness, that encourage reflection on the routine frailty of the human mind, its susceptibility to this sort of failure, the capriciousness of who falls into addiction and who doesn't. Does that sound like AA to you? AA encourages you to think of yourself as permanently faulty in an irreparable way and to choose your actions with that fault in mind. This is rather practical in preventing relapse, but it's not a resounding message of self-actualization. The "confession of sins" in steps 5, 8, 9 are inevitably going to be experienced as shameful and yes, humiliating. This is effective! It's a powerful deterrent to that behavior in the future. I meant exhausting. There is never a point in AA where you are cured, where you are free of AA, free of the burden of thinking of yourself as an alcoholic. Again this is very pragmatic: it reminds you that readdiction is always possible, it keeps you from letting your guard down even years into recovery. It also means the vigilance is eternal, exhausting. Everyone who has grappled with addiction agrees that sobriety is a better way of life. But that doesn't mean AA is the only way to get to it, or the most pleasant among the options. "We thought we could find an easier, softer way." We could not, but some others can, and those who can will have an easier, softer time than we do in here.
  - ChrisMarshallNY 4y ago
    My apologies, then. I do understand your point. I may have a bit to say, but you know, that ol' Tradition Eleven, and whatnot. Just be aware that there are others, on their own journeys. I found that using was exhausting. I don't think that having addiction under control, is exhausting at all. Others have far worse crosses to bear, and all the good things that have come, have more than made up for any issues that I may have, as a result of a .44 magnum, pointed at my head, all the time. It's definitely "endless," but so are many things. I've found that the Fourth, Fifth, Sixth, Seventh, Eighth, Ninth, and Tenth Steps are about losing the shame of of active addiction. In fact, their most practical use, is to have us become so comfortable with our pasts, that we can routinely recount them, to people looking for help. What It Was Like, What Happened, and What It's Like, Now. That "What it Was Like" part is real important. If we're not comfortable telling some shaking newcomer that we used to rob church poorboxes, then we're kinda useless. But what do I know? I'm just some Internet rando. I wouldn't have even written this, if this story hadn't been shoved to the back of the broom closet in record time. Have a great day.