7 ms·

>the dopamine system If I had a nickel for every time someone made a reference to neurotransmitters as an unscientific rhetorical bludgeon, I could probably bu

by scythe 4y ago

>the dopamine system If I had a nickel for every time someone made a reference to neurotransmitters as an unscientific rhetorical bludgeon, I could probably buy a house in Stinson Beach. There is no "dopamine system", certainly no more than there is an "enkephalin system" or a "glycine system". The age of psychotropic drugs has produced a new generation of pseudoneuroscience, which depicts a brain whose behavior can always be explained in terms of a few neurotransmitters — the four humours for scholars in the academy of YouTube. Let it be known that the mind deals with information first, and no levels of N-acetylaspartate or 2-arachidonylglycerol, however finely tuned, can teach you how to do calculus or drive a car, or, for that matter, how to have sex. Neurotransmitters, particularly famous neurotransmitters, should only be invoked when there is physical evidence, and the pop-culture equivocation between dopamine release and pleasure itself certainly does not qualify.

biosboiii 4y ago
If you could elaborate on the topic it would be really great, I know so many people who blame everything in their life, most of all their lack of discipline with, oohhhhh my brain needs dopamine, i just need that doppaamine, and serotonin, you can increase it by bla bla talking about the brain like it is an engine that runs on oil gas, sparks and timing. Last time I checked we knew next to nothing about how our brains really work in depth.
- notamy 4y ago
  > If you could elaborate on the topic it would be really great, I know so many people who blame everything in their life, most of all their lack of discipline with, oohhhhh my brain needs dopamine, i just need that doppaamine, and serotonin, you can increase it by bla bla talking about the brain like it is an engine that runs on oil gas, sparks and timing. aiui (someone who knows more please correct me if I'm wrong): It's not as simple as "my brain lacks serotonin -> I am depressed" or similar, because neurotransmitters are just that -- something that moves some message around the body. ~90% of bodily serotonin is used in the GI system, ~8% in platelets, and the rest in the CNS[0]. Since it's one of the primary neurotransmitters, it affects an enormous number of systems in the body: Memory, learning, anxiety, pain, depression, vision (and hallucinations; psychedelics bind to serotonin-2A), vasoconstriction, bone mass, heart function, vomiting, food moving through the GI system, and a LOT of other functions[1]. It's why psychoactive drugs work with such broad effects: - Cannabis has memory-altering effects because of indirect action on serotonin receptors via the cannabinoid receptors[2] - Psychedelics bind to serotonin-2A to produce the primary effects - MDMA binds to the serotonin transporter (among other things) as a reuptake inhibitor, and also causes the brain to release serotonin. MDMA also indirectly stimulates a lot of receptors[3], so it's not as simple as "MDMA -> serotonin release / reuptake inhibition -> happy :D" or similar. There's also some fairly recent research[4] that the serotonin model of depression might be wrong: > The main areas of serotonin research provide no consistent evidence of there being an association between serotonin and depression, and no support for the hypothesis that depression is caused by lowered serotonin activity or concentrations. Some evidence was consistent with the possibility that long-term antidepressant use reduces serotonin concentration. Many antidepressants also act on receptors other than serotonin receptors, ex. Bupropion[6] is a norepinephrine–dopamine reuptake inhibitor and doesn't touch serotonin at all. This isn't to say that serotonin activity plays no role in depression etc., but rather that it's a part of a very complicated picture. --- I imagine that the "confusion" around the topic is caused by something like: - Researchers in the 50-60s[5] think serotonin might have smth to do with depression - Medications that affect serotonin seem to work, so we go with it - We get to more-modern times, where the internet is fairly commonplace - People are prescribed SSRIs or similar for depression - People are told SSRIs increase levels of serotonin in the brain - This gets turned into "depression caused by low serotonin" - We are here [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serotonin https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serotonin [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serotonin#Serotonylation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serotonin#Serotonylation See table below heading [2] https://journals.plos.org/plosbiology/article?id=10.1371/journal.pbio.1002194 https://journals.plos.org/plosbiology/article?id=10.1371/jou... [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MDMA#Receptor_binding https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MDMA#Receptor_binding [4] https://www.nature.com/articles/s41380-022-01661-0 https://www.nature.com/articles/s41380-022-01661-0 [5] https://www.menningerclinic.org/news-resources/serotonin-theory-of-depression-a-look-at-its-complicated-history https://www.menningerclinic.org/news-resources/serotonin-the... Please note I am only using this as a date reference [6] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bupropion#Pharmacology https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bupropion#Pharmacology
DontchaKnowit 4y ago
Youre telling me that viewing porn does not spike dopamine? Well youre fucking wrong. This is obviously true. And of course there is such a thing as a dopamine system. You have dopamine and dopamine receptors, Id call that a system. How do you think amphetamines work? Norepenephrine and dopamine. This is a weird comment
- bloqs 4y ago
  Please consider revising your future comments here to be less combatative. This isn't in line with HN culture and simply kills healthy discussion. You can refute without being emotional and flaming people.
  - DontchaKnowit 4y ago
    alright fair enough, got a little hot under the collar. Apologies, and apologies to OP as well. Haven't had my Wheaties yet this morning.
    - bloqs 4y ago
      Thanks for being a gent!
- LoganDark 4y ago
  > How do you think amphetamines work? Norepenephrine and dopamine. And serotonin—amphetamines are SRIs as well.
  - DontchaKnowit 4y ago
    Yes, though the action is comparatively weak, especially once tolerance builds. But I remember when I first tried amphetamines it often felt very similar to taking MDMA (or other serotonin releasers). Pupils the size of saucers, goosebumps from music and sensory experiences, etc.
    - LoganDark 4y ago
el_don_almighty 4y ago
"The four humours for scholars in the Academy of YouTube" - A fascinating idea What would they be, what fundamental underlying phisio/physocological characteristics of humanity would they describe, and why? How would they help categorize human behavior, assist in understanding decision frameworks and better inform forecasts of future group/individual responses to stimulus? Can we use these tools for improving conditions, or should we simply manipulate others and free them from the burden of spending their money by quietly taking it?
throw1234651234 4y ago
I don't know about the dopamine system, but anecdotally my experience is that I can get burned out on entertainment & sugar in a way that correlates what people describe from drugs (not personal experience there).
LoganDark 4y ago
I don't know. As someone with severe ADHD whose life was significantly impacted by a disordered dopaminergic system... yes entire classes of complex behavior can indeed be explained by a single neurotransmitter. And a simple dopamine reuptake inhibitor fixed everything for me. Shut up.
- unaindz 4y ago
  I don't think OP it's saying they are not important just that their names get used so much that they lose all meaning. Both schizophrenia and depression are linked to dopamine and serotonin limiting our understanding of the diseases to has more or less of x neurotransmitter is naive. Same with chronic stress and cortisol and probably ADHD and dopamine. The problem is trying to explain every single thing using the same neurotransmitters and nothing else while just serotonin alone can make you puke your guts out or see god (god meaning: whatever you believe in) or alter your sleep.
  - LoganDark 4y ago
    > Both schizophrenia and depression are linked to dopamine and serotonin limiting our understanding of the diseases to has more or less of x neurotransmitter is naive. Same with chronic stress and cortisol and probably ADHD and dopamine. > The problem is trying to explain every single thing using the same neurotransmitters and nothing else while just serotonin alone can make you puke your guts out or see god (god meaning: whatever you believe in) or alter your sleep. Yeah, I see your point. I just don't think it's fair to go on a whole spiel about how a "dopamine system" doesn't even exist when there are obvious examples of people who have defects in that system that cause a whole host of issues. Yeah sure the correct term is "dopaminergic system", but... does it really matter? (Not to mention that dopamine is the primary reward response for "doing things you enjoy" anyway, so it's even relevant in this context. Even if you want to get technical and say endorphins are responsible for some of it...)
    - scythe 4y ago
      >I just don't think it's fair to go on a whole spiel about how a "dopamine system" doesn't even exist Because it does not exist. The correct term is not "dopaminergic system". There is no system associated to any particular neurotransmitter. >Not to mention that dopamine is the primary reward response for "doing things you enjoy" It is not. Dopamine is a neurotransmitter that is used by neurons involved in reward circuits. The reward response consists of actual neuronal activation, not levels of extracellular neurotransmitters.

by scythe 4y ago

biosboiii 4y ago

If you could elaborate on the topic it would be really great, I know so many people who blame everything in their life, most of all their lack of discipline with, oohhhhh my brain needs dopamine, i just need that doppaamine, and serotonin, you can increase it by bla bla talking about the brain like it is an engine that runs on oil gas, sparks and timing. Last time I checked we knew next to nothing about how our brains really work in depth.

notamy 4y ago
> If you could elaborate on the topic it would be really great, I know so many people who blame everything in their life, most of all their lack of discipline with, oohhhhh my brain needs dopamine, i just need that doppaamine, and serotonin, you can increase it by bla bla talking about the brain like it is an engine that runs on oil gas, sparks and timing. aiui (someone who knows more please correct me if I'm wrong): It's not as simple as "my brain lacks serotonin -> I am depressed" or similar, because neurotransmitters are just that -- something that moves some message around the body. ~90% of bodily serotonin is used in the GI system, ~8% in platelets, and the rest in the CNS[0]. Since it's one of the primary neurotransmitters, it affects an enormous number of systems in the body: Memory, learning, anxiety, pain, depression, vision (and hallucinations; psychedelics bind to serotonin-2A), vasoconstriction, bone mass, heart function, vomiting, food moving through the GI system, and a LOT of other functions[1]. It's why psychoactive drugs work with such broad effects: - Cannabis has memory-altering effects because of indirect action on serotonin receptors via the cannabinoid receptors[2] - Psychedelics bind to serotonin-2A to produce the primary effects - MDMA binds to the serotonin transporter (among other things) as a reuptake inhibitor, and also causes the brain to release serotonin. MDMA also indirectly stimulates a lot of receptors[3], so it's not as simple as "MDMA -> serotonin release / reuptake inhibition -> happy :D" or similar. There's also some fairly recent research[4] that the serotonin model of depression might be wrong: > The main areas of serotonin research provide no consistent evidence of there being an association between serotonin and depression, and no support for the hypothesis that depression is caused by lowered serotonin activity or concentrations. Some evidence was consistent with the possibility that long-term antidepressant use reduces serotonin concentration. Many antidepressants also act on receptors other than serotonin receptors, ex. Bupropion[6] is a norepinephrine–dopamine reuptake inhibitor and doesn't touch serotonin at all. This isn't to say that serotonin activity plays no role in depression etc., but rather that it's a part of a very complicated picture. --- I imagine that the "confusion" around the topic is caused by something like: - Researchers in the 50-60s[5] think serotonin might have smth to do with depression - Medications that affect serotonin seem to work, so we go with it - We get to more-modern times, where the internet is fairly commonplace - People are prescribed SSRIs or similar for depression - People are told SSRIs increase levels of serotonin in the brain - This gets turned into "depression caused by low serotonin" - We are here [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serotonin https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serotonin [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serotonin#Serotonylation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serotonin#Serotonylation See table below heading [2] https://journals.plos.org/plosbiology/article?id=10.1371/journal.pbio.1002194 https://journals.plos.org/plosbiology/article?id=10.1371/jou... [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MDMA#Receptor_binding https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MDMA#Receptor_binding [4] https://www.nature.com/articles/s41380-022-01661-0 https://www.nature.com/articles/s41380-022-01661-0 [5] https://www.menningerclinic.org/news-resources/serotonin-theory-of-depression-a-look-at-its-complicated-history https://www.menningerclinic.org/news-resources/serotonin-the... Please note I am only using this as a date reference [6] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bupropion#Pharmacology https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bupropion#Pharmacology

DontchaKnowit 4y ago

Youre telling me that viewing porn does not spike dopamine? Well youre fucking wrong. This is obviously true. And of course there is such a thing as a dopamine system. You have dopamine and dopamine receptors, Id call that a system. How do you think amphetamines work? Norepenephrine and dopamine. This is a weird comment

bloqs 4y ago
Please consider revising your future comments here to be less combatative. This isn't in line with HN culture and simply kills healthy discussion. You can refute without being emotional and flaming people.
- DontchaKnowit 4y ago
  alright fair enough, got a little hot under the collar. Apologies, and apologies to OP as well. Haven't had my Wheaties yet this morning.
  - bloqs 4y ago
    Thanks for being a gent!
LoganDark 4y ago
> How do you think amphetamines work? Norepenephrine and dopamine. And serotonin—amphetamines are SRIs as well.
- DontchaKnowit 4y ago
  Yes, though the action is comparatively weak, especially once tolerance builds. But I remember when I first tried amphetamines it often felt very similar to taking MDMA (or other serotonin releasers). Pupils the size of saucers, goosebumps from music and sensory experiences, etc.
  - LoganDark 4y ago

el_don_almighty 4y ago

"The four humours for scholars in the Academy of YouTube" - A fascinating idea What would they be, what fundamental underlying phisio/physocological characteristics of humanity would they describe, and why? How would they help categorize human behavior, assist in understanding decision frameworks and better inform forecasts of future group/individual responses to stimulus? Can we use these tools for improving conditions, or should we simply manipulate others and free them from the burden of spending their money by quietly taking it?

throw1234651234 4y ago

I don't know about the dopamine system, but anecdotally my experience is that I can get burned out on entertainment & sugar in a way that correlates what people describe from drugs (not personal experience there).

LoganDark 4y ago

I don't know. As someone with severe ADHD whose life was significantly impacted by a disordered dopaminergic system... yes entire classes of complex behavior can indeed be explained by a single neurotransmitter. And a simple dopamine reuptake inhibitor fixed everything for me. Shut up.

unaindz 4y ago
I don't think OP it's saying they are not important just that their names get used so much that they lose all meaning. Both schizophrenia and depression are linked to dopamine and serotonin limiting our understanding of the diseases to has more or less of x neurotransmitter is naive. Same with chronic stress and cortisol and probably ADHD and dopamine. The problem is trying to explain every single thing using the same neurotransmitters and nothing else while just serotonin alone can make you puke your guts out or see god (god meaning: whatever you believe in) or alter your sleep.
- LoganDark 4y ago
  > Both schizophrenia and depression are linked to dopamine and serotonin limiting our understanding of the diseases to has more or less of x neurotransmitter is naive. Same with chronic stress and cortisol and probably ADHD and dopamine. > The problem is trying to explain every single thing using the same neurotransmitters and nothing else while just serotonin alone can make you puke your guts out or see god (god meaning: whatever you believe in) or alter your sleep. Yeah, I see your point. I just don't think it's fair to go on a whole spiel about how a "dopamine system" doesn't even exist when there are obvious examples of people who have defects in that system that cause a whole host of issues. Yeah sure the correct term is "dopaminergic system", but... does it really matter? (Not to mention that dopamine is the primary reward response for "doing things you enjoy" anyway, so it's even relevant in this context. Even if you want to get technical and say endorphins are responsible for some of it...)
  - scythe 4y ago
    >I just don't think it's fair to go on a whole spiel about how a "dopamine system" doesn't even exist Because it does not exist. The correct term is not "dopaminergic system". There is no system associated to any particular neurotransmitter. >Not to mention that dopamine is the primary reward response for "doing things you enjoy" It is not. Dopamine is a neurotransmitter that is used by neurons involved in reward circuits. The reward response consists of actual neuronal activation, not levels of extracellular neurotransmitters.