6 ms·

On the flipside, there are also a small selection of unproven treatments that work better than standard care.

nawgz 4y ago
... That's not the flipside, that's the "exception to the rule". Of course the system's not perfect, but people don't live way longer now because our medicine is worse than before...
- StrictDabbler 4y ago
  "The exception proves the rule" refers to a logical/legal situation where a rule has been posted with specific exceptions. A sign that says "no parking on Sundays" logically implies that parking is allowed all other days. The concept you're looking for is closer to "any statistical group has outlier cases".
  - nawgz 4y ago
    I did not use the word "proves"; the "exception to the rule" fallacy is when you see a singular case violating some rule and you use that to assume the rule doesn't hold in general, or you make generalizations from a singular case. The commenter I'm replying to is advocating for homeo- / naturo-pathy because of some statistically insignificant and probably actually not causally based relationship they've witnessed, which is generalizing from a ~singular case
PragmaticPulp 4y ago
The standard of care doesn’t mean it’s optimal for everyone. Doctors will often explore alternative treatments when the first-line measures aren’t working optimally. It’s a mistake to ignore proven, first-line treatments and skip straight to less proven alternatives, though. Some people have built an anti-mainstream bias that puts too much emphasis on the unproven, alternative treatments while downplaying the most proven treatments.
- ipaddr 4y ago
  The biggest mistake anyone can make is to blindly jump into medical treatments first when common home treatments with lower side effects can handle the job. If you do that you'll be in blood pressure meds by 35 instead of reducing your salt.
  - CapstanRoller 4y ago
    >instead of reducing your salt Salt is not to blame, it turns out https://archive.is/pWUI0 https://archive.is/pWUI0
    - goldenkey 4y ago
      It's really the water consumption. If your urine isn't clear, you don't drink enough water. Additional salt means higher water requirements if you aren't losing it to sweat.
lapetitejort 4y ago
Can you share an example of an unproven treatment that works better than standard care?
- heisenbit 4y ago
  Adoption of new methods takes a considerable time in medicine. Some methods may be considered unproven by the majority but are being adopted by pioneers. Now if you could distinguish pioneers from quacks easily…
- aantix 4y ago
  Rinsing with baby shampoo and iodine for the treatment of sinus inflammation. Vs antibiotics and/or saline rinses.
- GistNoesis 4y ago
  Getting to the root causes is often preferable. For example if your air quality is bad and/or ventilation is bad and may cause sleep apnea (like high CO2 concentration often makes you feel drowsy). But the seller of CPAP machine will not monitor your air environment. With medical problems there are often multiple factors, and when a solution is found that fix the symptoms, care is no longer taken to find the other causes, specially if the solution is generating recurring revenues.
- Out_of_Characte 4y ago
  I can come up with examples but know its ironic to try to proof treatments that are, scientifically or medically, not verified. Theres diet, sleep, exercise. Which require no studies to know that taking better care of yourself will help you regardless of the pathology. Then there's the somewhat strange case of orthodontist John Mew, who advocates for setting your tongue posture to the roof of your mouth in order to close the jaw properly, to prevent standard treatment of various braces, teeth alignment issues and corrective jaw surgery. Other strange therapies that I've come across that seem unhealthy but have some backing are intentional sleep deprivation to improve depressive symptoms. prolonged fasting to reduce scar tissue. Or one I personally use alot, extremely cold showers after allergene exposure. There are alot of silly things the human body can do that at first glance might seem irresponsible or dangerous but are about as dangerous as people in the 1900's might imagine airplanes would be. One more thing I might add, standard care does not mean 'in your best interest' some standard practise might be too cruel to accept, like chemotherapy. Even though its proven to extend your life, it might not be proven to be in your best interest.
8ytecoder 4y ago
Doctors do often recommend those - they just won’t touch anything that might requires FDA approval and doesn’t have it. I have indigestion issues and it’s my doctor who recommended a supplement with peppermint oil and castor oil. Worked like a charm for me. I had tried a whole suite of meds prescribed by my GP but the GI specialist went straight to the supplement.
PicassoCTs 4y ago
And if they survive rigorous testing, they become "standard care". Sience is the borg of all ideas, the good ones get integrated, the bad ones stay outside. Opposition to the borg is appreciated, as it raises the assimilation value.
rendaw 4y ago
If they're unproven, how do you know they work better than standard (=proven) care?
- Levitz 4y ago
  There is a certain weight to experience and prevalence, you can go wrong, sure, but it's often worth it to try. Parachutes aren't scientifically proven to work on humans.
- Spooky23 4y ago
  Unproven doesn’t mean ineffective. Cranberry juice isn’t FDA approved to help with urinary tract infections, but is frequently recommended by urologists and works. Another example is that isopropyl alcohol, which is an effective disinfectant, doesn’t meet the EPA standards for being a pesticide… which is because it’s existence predates the process. It’s expensive to go through that rigorous process, and there’s no economic incentive to go through that for something that isn’t patentable. In the case of cranberry juice, it’s not sold as medicine. In the case of alcohol, you can buy very expensive wipes that have a certification if you need it for some industrial process.
  - halostatue 4y ago
    Funnily enough, cranberry juice does not show any clinical benefit for treating UTIs over and above simple hydration, and it shows minimal benefit for UTI prevention. https://www.healthline.com/health/baking-soda-for-uti#bottom-line https://www.healthline.com/health/baking-soda-for-uti#bottom...
    - goldenkey 4y ago
      That really doesn't mean shit since it anecdotally works to all the folks that have had UTIs. Whether the causal effect is indirect is really asides the point. It works.
      - OOPMan 4y ago
Angostura 4y ago
Prove it.

... That's not the flipside, that's the "exception to the rule". Of course the system's not perfect, but people don't live way longer now because our medicine is worse than before...

StrictDabbler 4y ago
"The exception proves the rule" refers to a logical/legal situation where a rule has been posted with specific exceptions. A sign that says "no parking on Sundays" logically implies that parking is allowed all other days. The concept you're looking for is closer to "any statistical group has outlier cases".
- nawgz 4y ago
  I did not use the word "proves"; the "exception to the rule" fallacy is when you see a singular case violating some rule and you use that to assume the rule doesn't hold in general, or you make generalizations from a singular case. The commenter I'm replying to is advocating for homeo- / naturo-pathy because of some statistically insignificant and probably actually not causally based relationship they've witnessed, which is generalizing from a ~singular case

PragmaticPulp 4y ago

The standard of care doesn’t mean it’s optimal for everyone. Doctors will often explore alternative treatments when the first-line measures aren’t working optimally. It’s a mistake to ignore proven, first-line treatments and skip straight to less proven alternatives, though. Some people have built an anti-mainstream bias that puts too much emphasis on the unproven, alternative treatments while downplaying the most proven treatments.

ipaddr 4y ago
The biggest mistake anyone can make is to blindly jump into medical treatments first when common home treatments with lower side effects can handle the job. If you do that you'll be in blood pressure meds by 35 instead of reducing your salt.
- CapstanRoller 4y ago
  >instead of reducing your salt Salt is not to blame, it turns out https://archive.is/pWUI0 https://archive.is/pWUI0
  - goldenkey 4y ago
    It's really the water consumption. If your urine isn't clear, you don't drink enough water. Additional salt means higher water requirements if you aren't losing it to sweat.

lapetitejort 4y ago

Can you share an example of an unproven treatment that works better than standard care?

heisenbit 4y ago
Adoption of new methods takes a considerable time in medicine. Some methods may be considered unproven by the majority but are being adopted by pioneers. Now if you could distinguish pioneers from quacks easily…
aantix 4y ago
Rinsing with baby shampoo and iodine for the treatment of sinus inflammation. Vs antibiotics and/or saline rinses.
GistNoesis 4y ago
Getting to the root causes is often preferable. For example if your air quality is bad and/or ventilation is bad and may cause sleep apnea (like high CO2 concentration often makes you feel drowsy). But the seller of CPAP machine will not monitor your air environment. With medical problems there are often multiple factors, and when a solution is found that fix the symptoms, care is no longer taken to find the other causes, specially if the solution is generating recurring revenues.
Out_of_Characte 4y ago
I can come up with examples but know its ironic to try to proof treatments that are, scientifically or medically, not verified. Theres diet, sleep, exercise. Which require no studies to know that taking better care of yourself will help you regardless of the pathology. Then there's the somewhat strange case of orthodontist John Mew, who advocates for setting your tongue posture to the roof of your mouth in order to close the jaw properly, to prevent standard treatment of various braces, teeth alignment issues and corrective jaw surgery. Other strange therapies that I've come across that seem unhealthy but have some backing are intentional sleep deprivation to improve depressive symptoms. prolonged fasting to reduce scar tissue. Or one I personally use alot, extremely cold showers after allergene exposure. There are alot of silly things the human body can do that at first glance might seem irresponsible or dangerous but are about as dangerous as people in the 1900's might imagine airplanes would be. One more thing I might add, standard care does not mean 'in your best interest' some standard practise might be too cruel to accept, like chemotherapy. Even though its proven to extend your life, it might not be proven to be in your best interest.

8ytecoder 4y ago

Doctors do often recommend those - they just won’t touch anything that might requires FDA approval and doesn’t have it. I have indigestion issues and it’s my doctor who recommended a supplement with peppermint oil and castor oil. Worked like a charm for me. I had tried a whole suite of meds prescribed by my GP but the GI specialist went straight to the supplement.

PicassoCTs 4y ago

And if they survive rigorous testing, they become "standard care". Sience is the borg of all ideas, the good ones get integrated, the bad ones stay outside. Opposition to the borg is appreciated, as it raises the assimilation value.

rendaw 4y ago

If they're unproven, how do you know they work better than standard (=proven) care?

Levitz 4y ago
There is a certain weight to experience and prevalence, you can go wrong, sure, but it's often worth it to try. Parachutes aren't scientifically proven to work on humans.
Spooky23 4y ago
Unproven doesn’t mean ineffective. Cranberry juice isn’t FDA approved to help with urinary tract infections, but is frequently recommended by urologists and works. Another example is that isopropyl alcohol, which is an effective disinfectant, doesn’t meet the EPA standards for being a pesticide… which is because it’s existence predates the process. It’s expensive to go through that rigorous process, and there’s no economic incentive to go through that for something that isn’t patentable. In the case of cranberry juice, it’s not sold as medicine. In the case of alcohol, you can buy very expensive wipes that have a certification if you need it for some industrial process.
- halostatue 4y ago
  Funnily enough, cranberry juice does not show any clinical benefit for treating UTIs over and above simple hydration, and it shows minimal benefit for UTI prevention. https://www.healthline.com/health/baking-soda-for-uti#bottom-line https://www.healthline.com/health/baking-soda-for-uti#bottom...
  - goldenkey 4y ago
    That really doesn't mean shit since it anecdotally works to all the folks that have had UTIs. Whether the causal effect is indirect is really asides the point. It works.
    - OOPMan 4y ago

Angostura 4y ago

Prove it.