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He recognized the signs of sleep apnea and pursued treatment with sleep apnea devices, getting confirmation of the problem with the help of his doctor. The DIY

He recognized the signs of sleep apnea and pursued treatment with sleep apnea devices, getting confirmation of the problem with the help of his doctor. The DIY part was largely related to pushing the process forward, not doing novel experimentation. Nobody would call that “anti-science”. Anti-science would be something like ignoring the common treatments and trying to solve the problem with natural supplements or something. Going this route often delays people from getting to proven treatments because they spend a long, long time trying underpowered or unproven things that don’t work.

Out_of_Characte 4y ago
On the flipside, there are also a small selection of unproven treatments that work better than standard care.
- nawgz 4y ago
  ... That's not the flipside, that's the "exception to the rule". Of course the system's not perfect, but people don't live way longer now because our medicine is worse than before...
  - StrictDabbler 4y ago
    "The exception proves the rule" refers to a logical/legal situation where a rule has been posted with specific exceptions. A sign that says "no parking on Sundays" logically implies that parking is allowed all other days. The concept you're looking for is closer to "any statistical group has outlier cases".
    - nawgz 4y ago
      I did not use the word "proves"; the "exception to the rule" fallacy is when you see a singular case violating some rule and you use that to assume the rule doesn't hold in general, or you make generalizations from a singular case. The commenter I'm replying to is advocating for homeo- / naturo-pathy because of some statistically insignificant and probably actually not causally based relationship they've witnessed, which is generalizing from a ~singular case
- PragmaticPulp 4y ago
  The standard of care doesn’t mean it’s optimal for everyone. Doctors will often explore alternative treatments when the first-line measures aren’t working optimally. It’s a mistake to ignore proven, first-line treatments and skip straight to less proven alternatives, though. Some people have built an anti-mainstream bias that puts too much emphasis on the unproven, alternative treatments while downplaying the most proven treatments.
  - ipaddr 4y ago
    The biggest mistake anyone can make is to blindly jump into medical treatments first when common home treatments with lower side effects can handle the job. If you do that you'll be in blood pressure meds by 35 instead of reducing your salt.
    - CapstanRoller 4y ago
      >instead of reducing your salt Salt is not to blame, it turns out https://archive.is/pWUI0 https://archive.is/pWUI0
      - goldenkey 4y ago
        It's really the water consumption. If your urine isn't clear, you don't drink enough water. Additional salt means higher water requirements if you aren't losing it to sweat.
- lapetitejort 4y ago
  Can you share an example of an unproven treatment that works better than standard care?
  - heisenbit 4y ago
    Adoption of new methods takes a considerable time in medicine. Some methods may be considered unproven by the majority but are being adopted by pioneers. Now if you could distinguish pioneers from quacks easily…
  - aantix 4y ago
    Rinsing with baby shampoo and iodine for the treatment of sinus inflammation. Vs antibiotics and/or saline rinses.
  - GistNoesis 4y ago
    Getting to the root causes is often preferable. For example if your air quality is bad and/or ventilation is bad and may cause sleep apnea (like high CO2 concentration often makes you feel drowsy). But the seller of CPAP machine will not monitor your air environment. With medical problems there are often multiple factors, and when a solution is found that fix the symptoms, care is no longer taken to find the other causes, specially if the solution is generating recurring revenues.
  - Out_of_Characte 4y ago
    I can come up with examples but know its ironic to try to proof treatments that are, scientifically or medically, not verified. Theres diet, sleep, exercise. Which require no studies to know that taking better care of yourself will help you regardless of the pathology. Then there's the somewhat strange case of orthodontist John Mew, who advocates for setting your tongue posture to the roof of your mouth in order to close the jaw properly, to prevent standard treatment of various braces, teeth alignment issues and corrective jaw surgery. Other strange therapies that I've come across that seem unhealthy but have some backing are intentional sleep deprivation to improve depressive symptoms. prolonged fasting to reduce scar tissue. Or one I personally use alot, extremely cold showers after allergene exposure. There are alot of silly things the human body can do that at first glance might seem irresponsible or dangerous but are about as dangerous as people in the 1900's might imagine airplanes would be. One more thing I might add, standard care does not mean 'in your best interest' some standard practise might be too cruel to accept, like chemotherapy. Even though its proven to extend your life, it might not be proven to be in your best interest.
- 8ytecoder 4y ago
  Doctors do often recommend those - they just won’t touch anything that might requires FDA approval and doesn’t have it. I have indigestion issues and it’s my doctor who recommended a supplement with peppermint oil and castor oil. Worked like a charm for me. I had tried a whole suite of meds prescribed by my GP but the GI specialist went straight to the supplement.
- PicassoCTs 4y ago
  And if they survive rigorous testing, they become "standard care". Sience is the borg of all ideas, the good ones get integrated, the bad ones stay outside. Opposition to the borg is appreciated, as it raises the assimilation value.
- rendaw 4y ago
  If they're unproven, how do you know they work better than standard (=proven) care?
  - Levitz 4y ago
    There is a certain weight to experience and prevalence, you can go wrong, sure, but it's often worth it to try. Parachutes aren't scientifically proven to work on humans.
  - Spooky23 4y ago
    Unproven doesn’t mean ineffective. Cranberry juice isn’t FDA approved to help with urinary tract infections, but is frequently recommended by urologists and works. Another example is that isopropyl alcohol, which is an effective disinfectant, doesn’t meet the EPA standards for being a pesticide… which is because it’s existence predates the process. It’s expensive to go through that rigorous process, and there’s no economic incentive to go through that for something that isn’t patentable. In the case of cranberry juice, it’s not sold as medicine. In the case of alcohol, you can buy very expensive wipes that have a certification if you need it for some industrial process.
    - halostatue 4y ago
      Funnily enough, cranberry juice does not show any clinical benefit for treating UTIs over and above simple hydration, and it shows minimal benefit for UTI prevention. https://www.healthline.com/health/baking-soda-for-uti#bottom-line https://www.healthline.com/health/baking-soda-for-uti#bottom...
      - goldenkey 4y ago
        That really doesn't mean shit since it anecdotally works to all the folks that have had UTIs. Whether the causal effect is indirect is really asides the point. It works.
        OOPMan 4y ago
- Angostura 4y ago
  Prove it.
dylan604 4y ago
isn't that the scientific process though? trying things to see the results sounds like the definition of experiment to me.
rdiddly 4y ago
Trying things is science, and any experiment can be retried to see if results replicate. People who aren't scientists or don't have time or equipment to be scientific about a thing have to decide where the balance lies, between how much science they're capable/willing to do vs. how many assumptions they're willing to make based on other people's science. There's no belief system called science and you can't be pro- or anti-science. Science ironically is pretty questioning and skeptical, so questioning some piece of science, is scientific. Certainty and the temptation toward it is your enemy if you would maintain a "scientific" worldview. Politics demands certainty, simplicity. Fascism, especially so.
- blix 4y ago
  > There's no belief system called science There are two belief systems called science. The less common one is the one you outline immediately after denying its existence: it's about asking questions and trying to establish evidence-based models to make predictions and testing/validating the assumptions in those models. It's probably more accurate to call this belief system empiricism. The more common one is a deferral to expert authority, where experts are designated by certain established scientific institutions. Because many lack the time/will/ability to independently verify claims made by authoritative figures, this deferral requires substantial trust in these institutions to come up with good answers. This second belief system is what most people mean when they label themselves or others as pro- or anti-science. Paradoxically, even though the authoritative institutions ostensibly produce information empirically, expressing skepticism and asking questions is often perceived as a lack of faith, and therefore anti-science.
  - rdiddly 4y ago
    Fine but it's an approach to knowledge, not a belief system.
    - blix 4y ago
      I feel this is distinction without a difference. All belief systems are approaches to knowledge and information at the end of the day. The institutional science belief system really has a lot in common with religion. In fact the instutions we now trust to train scientists and dispense scientific information largely grew out of instutions with a major focus to train clergy and dispense religious information. Empiricism is not really in that same subcategory, but it also rests on some set of ultimately unverifiable assumptions. In fact, I'd argue that one of the central assumptions of classical empiricism, that all systems are locally deterministic, is demonstrably false. The early quantum pioneers had a hard time coming to grips with this and there are still several competing interpretations of QM. This huge shift still hasn't fully percolated to many other fields of science, which often still assume local determinism and pretend QM doesn't exist.
Levitz 4y ago
>He recognized the signs of sleep apnea and pursued treatment with sleep apnea devices, getting confirmation of the problem with the help of his doctor. It actually baffled me that it wasn't his doctor who picked this up. A person waking up several times with confirmation from someone sleeping besides him that he has stopped breathing, I'm no doctor and gee maybe it's because there are a few cases in my family but that screams "sleep apnea" to me.
- groby_b 4y ago
  Absolutely no cases in my family, and it's still screaming sleep apnea. I mean, apnea literally means "stops breathing". A doctor who doesn't recognize that is maybe not the best possible doctor. To put it very mildly.
- Spooky23 4y ago
  Especially now. Sleep apnea is a big cash cow for medical networks. Normally if you mention a problem even somewhat in the neighborhood of sleep apnea you’re shoved into the funnel for sleep studies and CPAP devices.
  - zdragnar 4y ago
    Yeah, I said "I caught myself stopping breathing while I was drifting off to sleep, and my wife believes it has happened since" to my primary doctor, and got a referral to a specialist, to whom I repeated that statement, who referred me to a sleep study. That first meeting with the specialist was a profound waste of money, but at least it got me in the door. Since then, the CPAP has helped some, but it is just as likely to wake me up too early (I toss a lot in my sleep and it doesn't always stay sealed).
  - seventytwo 4y ago
    As it should be, honestly. Not getting quality sleep is a huuuge health risk, and can be solved very simply. It’s a wonder medical networks aren’t handing CPAPs out for free.
- Zpalmtree 4y ago

Out_of_Characte 4y ago

On the flipside, there are also a small selection of unproven treatments that work better than standard care.

nawgz 4y ago
... That's not the flipside, that's the "exception to the rule". Of course the system's not perfect, but people don't live way longer now because our medicine is worse than before...
- StrictDabbler 4y ago
  "The exception proves the rule" refers to a logical/legal situation where a rule has been posted with specific exceptions. A sign that says "no parking on Sundays" logically implies that parking is allowed all other days. The concept you're looking for is closer to "any statistical group has outlier cases".
  - nawgz 4y ago
    I did not use the word "proves"; the "exception to the rule" fallacy is when you see a singular case violating some rule and you use that to assume the rule doesn't hold in general, or you make generalizations from a singular case. The commenter I'm replying to is advocating for homeo- / naturo-pathy because of some statistically insignificant and probably actually not causally based relationship they've witnessed, which is generalizing from a ~singular case
PragmaticPulp 4y ago
The standard of care doesn’t mean it’s optimal for everyone. Doctors will often explore alternative treatments when the first-line measures aren’t working optimally. It’s a mistake to ignore proven, first-line treatments and skip straight to less proven alternatives, though. Some people have built an anti-mainstream bias that puts too much emphasis on the unproven, alternative treatments while downplaying the most proven treatments.
- ipaddr 4y ago
  The biggest mistake anyone can make is to blindly jump into medical treatments first when common home treatments with lower side effects can handle the job. If you do that you'll be in blood pressure meds by 35 instead of reducing your salt.
  - CapstanRoller 4y ago
    >instead of reducing your salt Salt is not to blame, it turns out https://archive.is/pWUI0 https://archive.is/pWUI0
    - goldenkey 4y ago
      It's really the water consumption. If your urine isn't clear, you don't drink enough water. Additional salt means higher water requirements if you aren't losing it to sweat.
lapetitejort 4y ago
Can you share an example of an unproven treatment that works better than standard care?
- heisenbit 4y ago
  Adoption of new methods takes a considerable time in medicine. Some methods may be considered unproven by the majority but are being adopted by pioneers. Now if you could distinguish pioneers from quacks easily…
- aantix 4y ago
  Rinsing with baby shampoo and iodine for the treatment of sinus inflammation. Vs antibiotics and/or saline rinses.
- GistNoesis 4y ago
  Getting to the root causes is often preferable. For example if your air quality is bad and/or ventilation is bad and may cause sleep apnea (like high CO2 concentration often makes you feel drowsy). But the seller of CPAP machine will not monitor your air environment. With medical problems there are often multiple factors, and when a solution is found that fix the symptoms, care is no longer taken to find the other causes, specially if the solution is generating recurring revenues.
- Out_of_Characte 4y ago
  I can come up with examples but know its ironic to try to proof treatments that are, scientifically or medically, not verified. Theres diet, sleep, exercise. Which require no studies to know that taking better care of yourself will help you regardless of the pathology. Then there's the somewhat strange case of orthodontist John Mew, who advocates for setting your tongue posture to the roof of your mouth in order to close the jaw properly, to prevent standard treatment of various braces, teeth alignment issues and corrective jaw surgery. Other strange therapies that I've come across that seem unhealthy but have some backing are intentional sleep deprivation to improve depressive symptoms. prolonged fasting to reduce scar tissue. Or one I personally use alot, extremely cold showers after allergene exposure. There are alot of silly things the human body can do that at first glance might seem irresponsible or dangerous but are about as dangerous as people in the 1900's might imagine airplanes would be. One more thing I might add, standard care does not mean 'in your best interest' some standard practise might be too cruel to accept, like chemotherapy. Even though its proven to extend your life, it might not be proven to be in your best interest.
8ytecoder 4y ago
Doctors do often recommend those - they just won’t touch anything that might requires FDA approval and doesn’t have it. I have indigestion issues and it’s my doctor who recommended a supplement with peppermint oil and castor oil. Worked like a charm for me. I had tried a whole suite of meds prescribed by my GP but the GI specialist went straight to the supplement.
PicassoCTs 4y ago
And if they survive rigorous testing, they become "standard care". Sience is the borg of all ideas, the good ones get integrated, the bad ones stay outside. Opposition to the borg is appreciated, as it raises the assimilation value.
rendaw 4y ago
If they're unproven, how do you know they work better than standard (=proven) care?
- Levitz 4y ago
  There is a certain weight to experience and prevalence, you can go wrong, sure, but it's often worth it to try. Parachutes aren't scientifically proven to work on humans.
- Spooky23 4y ago
  Unproven doesn’t mean ineffective. Cranberry juice isn’t FDA approved to help with urinary tract infections, but is frequently recommended by urologists and works. Another example is that isopropyl alcohol, which is an effective disinfectant, doesn’t meet the EPA standards for being a pesticide… which is because it’s existence predates the process. It’s expensive to go through that rigorous process, and there’s no economic incentive to go through that for something that isn’t patentable. In the case of cranberry juice, it’s not sold as medicine. In the case of alcohol, you can buy very expensive wipes that have a certification if you need it for some industrial process.
  - halostatue 4y ago
    Funnily enough, cranberry juice does not show any clinical benefit for treating UTIs over and above simple hydration, and it shows minimal benefit for UTI prevention. https://www.healthline.com/health/baking-soda-for-uti#bottom-line https://www.healthline.com/health/baking-soda-for-uti#bottom...
    - goldenkey 4y ago
      That really doesn't mean shit since it anecdotally works to all the folks that have had UTIs. Whether the causal effect is indirect is really asides the point. It works.
      - OOPMan 4y ago
Angostura 4y ago
Prove it.

dylan604 4y ago

isn't that the scientific process though? trying things to see the results sounds like the definition of experiment to me.

rdiddly 4y ago

Trying things is science, and any experiment can be retried to see if results replicate. People who aren't scientists or don't have time or equipment to be scientific about a thing have to decide where the balance lies, between how much science they're capable/willing to do vs. how many assumptions they're willing to make based on other people's science. There's no belief system called science and you can't be pro- or anti-science. Science ironically is pretty questioning and skeptical, so questioning some piece of science, is scientific. Certainty and the temptation toward it is your enemy if you would maintain a "scientific" worldview. Politics demands certainty, simplicity. Fascism, especially so.

blix 4y ago
> There's no belief system called science There are two belief systems called science. The less common one is the one you outline immediately after denying its existence: it's about asking questions and trying to establish evidence-based models to make predictions and testing/validating the assumptions in those models. It's probably more accurate to call this belief system empiricism. The more common one is a deferral to expert authority, where experts are designated by certain established scientific institutions. Because many lack the time/will/ability to independently verify claims made by authoritative figures, this deferral requires substantial trust in these institutions to come up with good answers. This second belief system is what most people mean when they label themselves or others as pro- or anti-science. Paradoxically, even though the authoritative institutions ostensibly produce information empirically, expressing skepticism and asking questions is often perceived as a lack of faith, and therefore anti-science.
- rdiddly 4y ago
  Fine but it's an approach to knowledge, not a belief system.
  - blix 4y ago
    I feel this is distinction without a difference. All belief systems are approaches to knowledge and information at the end of the day. The institutional science belief system really has a lot in common with religion. In fact the instutions we now trust to train scientists and dispense scientific information largely grew out of instutions with a major focus to train clergy and dispense religious information. Empiricism is not really in that same subcategory, but it also rests on some set of ultimately unverifiable assumptions. In fact, I'd argue that one of the central assumptions of classical empiricism, that all systems are locally deterministic, is demonstrably false. The early quantum pioneers had a hard time coming to grips with this and there are still several competing interpretations of QM. This huge shift still hasn't fully percolated to many other fields of science, which often still assume local determinism and pretend QM doesn't exist.

Levitz 4y ago

>He recognized the signs of sleep apnea and pursued treatment with sleep apnea devices, getting confirmation of the problem with the help of his doctor. It actually baffled me that it wasn't his doctor who picked this up. A person waking up several times with confirmation from someone sleeping besides him that he has stopped breathing, I'm no doctor and gee maybe it's because there are a few cases in my family but that screams "sleep apnea" to me.

groby_b 4y ago
Absolutely no cases in my family, and it's still screaming sleep apnea. I mean, apnea literally means "stops breathing". A doctor who doesn't recognize that is maybe not the best possible doctor. To put it very mildly.
Spooky23 4y ago
Especially now. Sleep apnea is a big cash cow for medical networks. Normally if you mention a problem even somewhat in the neighborhood of sleep apnea you’re shoved into the funnel for sleep studies and CPAP devices.
- zdragnar 4y ago
  Yeah, I said "I caught myself stopping breathing while I was drifting off to sleep, and my wife believes it has happened since" to my primary doctor, and got a referral to a specialist, to whom I repeated that statement, who referred me to a sleep study. That first meeting with the specialist was a profound waste of money, but at least it got me in the door. Since then, the CPAP has helped some, but it is just as likely to wake me up too early (I toss a lot in my sleep and it doesn't always stay sealed).
- seventytwo 4y ago
  As it should be, honestly. Not getting quality sleep is a huuuge health risk, and can be solved very simply. It’s a wonder medical networks aren’t handing CPAPs out for free.
Zpalmtree 4y ago