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I'll probably be downvoted, but city infrastructure needs to be a partner in this. I've always thought driverless vehicles are a losing proposition unless road

I'll probably be downvoted, but city infrastructure needs to be a partner in this. I've always thought driverless vehicles are a losing proposition unless road infrastructure engineering and transit is upgraded along with it. If SF is just ignoring it until it causes problems, well they're part of the problem.

uoaei 4y ago
My dream long-term would be completely separated infra for cars+buses and for bikes+scooters. Human-driven cars will be pointless except on backwoods trails or racetracks in any case.
- scottLobster 4y ago
  We better start on another baby boom then. Mass transit of any sort requires a certain population density to be viable. Unless you define any given suburb as "backwoods".
  - iamerroragent 4y ago
    [flagged]
    - scottLobster 4y ago
      It's anecdotal, but as an upper middle class, gun-owning, formerly (pre-Trump) Republican-voting American white guy raised in a largely white upper middle class suburb, I've ridden my adopted city's bus many times and it's fine. I'd happily take it to work and save on gas if it went straight there, as it stands taking the bus turns a 30 minute commute into an hour+ commute. Also my kid's doctor and dentist are completely inaccessible by bus, never mind other activities. Whatever the original motivations for suburbs, I've yet to meet anyone who moved to a suburb to get away from <insert ethnicity>, and I've had enough unasked for conversations with racists to know I don't immediately alienate them for whatever reason. Commute, crime, space and schools are usually at the top of the list of reasons for moving to a suburb. Sure you can argue institutionalized racism and such is somewhat integrated into those things, but very few people (with the possible exception of the less educated regions of the South/Midwest) are consciously turning down properties solely because a black family lives next door. At any rate, those people are bitter losers and idiots who's opinion grows less relevant each passing year. There are plenty of more rational people who could be convinced if mass transit was made practical
      - iamerroragent 4y ago
        "American white guy raised in a largely white upper middle class suburb, I've ridden my adopted city's bus many times and it's fine." Yeah, that will be the majority of people's experiences riding the bus. Other than sexual harassment. Or watching the driver have to refuse someone on the bus because they wanted to call the driver a derogatory slur. Regardless I digress. People absolutely move out of the City to the Suburbs "for the schools". They won't say it outright but no, white people don't want to live near black people in America. Otherwise, since rent is still pretty affordable in predominantly black neighborhoods you would think they (white people) would choose to live there instead of moving outside of the city and having longer commutes and bigger mortgages.
        kneebonian 4y ago
        > "Otherwise, since rent is still pretty affordable in predominantly black neighborhoods you would think they (white people) would choose to live there instead of moving outside of the city and having longer commutes and bigger mortgages." This is one of the most blatant cases of selective omission I've ever seen. Pray tell why is rent in Detroit or Chicago so cheap? I mean I spent two years doing humanitarian work across north Ohio in some of the cities that have incredibly "low rent" there's a reason for that, and anyone who can chooses to leave when they can for very obvious reasons if you go and visit those areas.
        iamerroragent 4y ago
        Idk, I grew up in a white middle class neighborhood but the cost of housing is pretty considerably lower in the neighborhoods to the other side of the freeway/railroad tracks that happens to also be predominantly black. (This is Ohio btw) Note those neighborhoods were built in similar times with similar sizes of lots and quality of houses. The only noticable differences between the two locations is racial makeup of the community. So if two areas are equally nice to live in but one is cheaper to live in than the other then why are people electing to live in a more expensive area over the cheaper one? Assuming everything else is equal.
  - uoaei 4y ago
    In the techno-utopian view which has become the default for self-driving vehicles' integration into society, suburbs are also served by self-driving cars. What is your point exactly?
pjc50 4y ago
Are the manufacturers going to pay for that? Or is it going to be a regressive transfer from the rest of the taxpayers?
- throwaway9980 4y ago
  Are bike manufacturers going to pay for bike lanes? Or is it going to be a regressive transfer? What about Big Walking Shoe, are they going to pay for these sidewalks or are we going to continue to subsidize their profits?
  - gatlin 4y ago
    [flagged]
    - marcellus23 4y ago
      I don't necessarily agree with it, but it's not inane. It was the government that paid for roads and highways, after all, not Ford or GM.
      - treis 4y ago
        I feel like I've stumbled into bizarro world. Self driving cars would be a massive boon to quality of life in every American city with perhaps a few exceptions. I couldn't care less if my city spent a billion dollars a year making them work. Way better than that billion going to the current public transit system that sucks out loud.
        marcellus23 4y ago
        Many people think that money could be better spent on improving transit so that it no longer sucks.
        treis 4y ago
        We tried that about 7 years ago. Zero projects from that tax increase have been delivered and the one actually under construction is mostly pointless.
lom 4y ago
You’re not going to be downvoted if that’s also the conclusion the article has.
chkaloon 4y ago
I was right, started with up votes, then the west coast time zone came alive and went -3. No surprise there.

uoaei 4y ago

My dream long-term would be completely separated infra for cars+buses and for bikes+scooters. Human-driven cars will be pointless except on backwoods trails or racetracks in any case.

scottLobster 4y ago
We better start on another baby boom then. Mass transit of any sort requires a certain population density to be viable. Unless you define any given suburb as "backwoods".
- iamerroragent 4y ago
  [flagged]
  - scottLobster 4y ago
    It's anecdotal, but as an upper middle class, gun-owning, formerly (pre-Trump) Republican-voting American white guy raised in a largely white upper middle class suburb, I've ridden my adopted city's bus many times and it's fine. I'd happily take it to work and save on gas if it went straight there, as it stands taking the bus turns a 30 minute commute into an hour+ commute. Also my kid's doctor and dentist are completely inaccessible by bus, never mind other activities. Whatever the original motivations for suburbs, I've yet to meet anyone who moved to a suburb to get away from <insert ethnicity>, and I've had enough unasked for conversations with racists to know I don't immediately alienate them for whatever reason. Commute, crime, space and schools are usually at the top of the list of reasons for moving to a suburb. Sure you can argue institutionalized racism and such is somewhat integrated into those things, but very few people (with the possible exception of the less educated regions of the South/Midwest) are consciously turning down properties solely because a black family lives next door. At any rate, those people are bitter losers and idiots who's opinion grows less relevant each passing year. There are plenty of more rational people who could be convinced if mass transit was made practical
    - iamerroragent 4y ago
      "American white guy raised in a largely white upper middle class suburb, I've ridden my adopted city's bus many times and it's fine." Yeah, that will be the majority of people's experiences riding the bus. Other than sexual harassment. Or watching the driver have to refuse someone on the bus because they wanted to call the driver a derogatory slur. Regardless I digress. People absolutely move out of the City to the Suburbs "for the schools". They won't say it outright but no, white people don't want to live near black people in America. Otherwise, since rent is still pretty affordable in predominantly black neighborhoods you would think they (white people) would choose to live there instead of moving outside of the city and having longer commutes and bigger mortgages.
      - kneebonian 4y ago
        > "Otherwise, since rent is still pretty affordable in predominantly black neighborhoods you would think they (white people) would choose to live there instead of moving outside of the city and having longer commutes and bigger mortgages." This is one of the most blatant cases of selective omission I've ever seen. Pray tell why is rent in Detroit or Chicago so cheap? I mean I spent two years doing humanitarian work across north Ohio in some of the cities that have incredibly "low rent" there's a reason for that, and anyone who can chooses to leave when they can for very obvious reasons if you go and visit those areas.
        iamerroragent 4y ago
        Idk, I grew up in a white middle class neighborhood but the cost of housing is pretty considerably lower in the neighborhoods to the other side of the freeway/railroad tracks that happens to also be predominantly black. (This is Ohio btw) Note those neighborhoods were built in similar times with similar sizes of lots and quality of houses. The only noticable differences between the two locations is racial makeup of the community. So if two areas are equally nice to live in but one is cheaper to live in than the other then why are people electing to live in a more expensive area over the cheaper one? Assuming everything else is equal.
- uoaei 4y ago
  In the techno-utopian view which has become the default for self-driving vehicles' integration into society, suburbs are also served by self-driving cars. What is your point exactly?

pjc50 4y ago

Are the manufacturers going to pay for that? Or is it going to be a regressive transfer from the rest of the taxpayers?

throwaway9980 4y ago
Are bike manufacturers going to pay for bike lanes? Or is it going to be a regressive transfer? What about Big Walking Shoe, are they going to pay for these sidewalks or are we going to continue to subsidize their profits?
- gatlin 4y ago
  [flagged]
  - marcellus23 4y ago
    I don't necessarily agree with it, but it's not inane. It was the government that paid for roads and highways, after all, not Ford or GM.
    - treis 4y ago
      I feel like I've stumbled into bizarro world. Self driving cars would be a massive boon to quality of life in every American city with perhaps a few exceptions. I couldn't care less if my city spent a billion dollars a year making them work. Way better than that billion going to the current public transit system that sucks out loud.
      - marcellus23 4y ago
        Many people think that money could be better spent on improving transit so that it no longer sucks.
        treis 4y ago
        We tried that about 7 years ago. Zero projects from that tax increase have been delivered and the one actually under construction is mostly pointless.

lom 4y ago

You’re not going to be downvoted if that’s also the conclusion the article has.

chkaloon 4y ago

I was right, started with up votes, then the west coast time zone came alive and went -3. No surprise there.