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Heat pump disappointment for climate-minded Massachusetts state senator
- tgflynn 3y agoIt's good to see a politician actually doing their own analysis rather than just following every fad. It's a characteristic that is sorely lacking from the US political class.
- phpisthebest 3y agoThe US Political Class is made up of Gullible people unable to do their own research because that is what the system has incentivized electing People with intelligence, principles, and convictions rarely last long in politics; People lacking those skills but the ability to charismatically reiterate the talking points of politically connected charities, action groups or lobbiest are well sought after....
- SketchySeaBeast 3y agoA more optimistic interpretation of "The US Political Class is made up of Gullible people unable to do their own research because that is what the system has incentivized electing" would be that the US political class can't possibly do their own research on every topic that they have to govern and instead have to rely on external experts. Not arguing that it ends up being those with the most money being the loudest, but it makes sense that you'd want to use the research of others for your own decision making if you're not an expert and have access to experts.
- red-iron-pine 3y agoThey're not "gullible" -- they exist to flog the views of those who elected them; that's their job. They exist to be a sock puppet for their voters. Think tanks exist to come up with policy prescriptions. There are just so many topics, internationally, locally, nationally, that no one can be a deep-dive expert unless they focus specifically on it.
- Weatebob 3y agoI would agree with you if that person would have mentioned research paper and not just some very weak anecdotal evidence. I find it very weird that their heat pump leaked and the efficiency is only at 150%. It's not clear at all if this is an crazy outlier or reality. IF this is not just an outlier than the next proper step from him would be to get the ball rolling with the right people to investigate the status quiet and fixing it.
- phpisthebest 3y agoHeat Pump efficiency is inversely linked to outside air temp, the colder it is outside the less efficient the heat pump is as there is less heat energy to extract from the outside to "pump" into the inside... Fixing is called physics... I am not sure magic words on a page (regulation) will "fix" physics....
- hcknwscommenter 3y agoIt's really difficult to understand what is going on with this politician's heat pump though because we are lacking a lot of basic information. A high quality minisplit system should top out at a COP of over 3.5 and be above 2 down to single digit F temperatures. E.g., https://www.mitsubishitechinfo.ca/sites/default/files/SB_PVA-A36AA7_PUZ-HA36NKA_202103.pdf https://www.mitsubishitechinfo.ca/sites/default/files/SB_PVA... has a COP of 2.17 at 5F. It seems like there is more to the story. A small duct/high velocity system could perform that poorly, but without the details it's just hard to tell. Most folks with normal ducting or ductless heat pump systems should realize much better efficiency than this guy is getting.
- nkurz 3y agoElsewhere he says that his heat pumps are two Daikin RJQ18TAVJUA:https://ashp.neep.org/#!/product/56878/7/25000///0 https://ashp.neep.org/#!/product/56878/7/25000///0. Much of the other information is probably available elsewhere on his site: https://willbrownsberger.com/heat-pumps/ https://willbrownsberger.com/heat-pumps/ As I mention in another comment, I think the base of the problem is that the heat pumps he has installed are simply inappropriate for his climate.
- tapoxi 3y agoBrownsberger is my state senator and he's actually pretty great, he works on things his constituents care about and I've seen him on public transit a number of times. My only real critique of him is that he had too much faith in the MBTA getting battery electric busses up and running when voting to get rid of our trolleybus system (MBTA 71 and 73).
- nl 3y agoIt seems ridiculous that refrigerator leaks are not "an uncommon occurrence". Does anyone have any insight into why this would be?
- abakker 3y agoBecause flare fittings are a concession to make install cheaper, not better. R410a and other similar refrigerants are very high pressure, and the fittings undergo significant thermal cycles. Flared copper tube is a bad design choice. IMO, going back to brazed tubing connections is the most rational choice.
- lordswork 3y agoFWIW, I just had a heat pump installed, and the installer brazed all copper fittings. Are flared fittings often used for these installs?
- abakker 3y agoMost mini splits use flairs, and in the context of heat pumps in the US, I see Minisplits most commonly discussed. The whole house condensers still use brazed connections.
- bluGill 3y agobrazed tubes can leak as well. I had that happen in my last house. Little leaks are hard to find, the first time I had the system refilled the tech couldn't find anything and put some sealer in. The next time the tech did the same and was disconnecting the fill lines when he saw a dark spot, then he emptied the lines and did the proper fix.
- abakker 3y agoSure, anything can leak. Brazed fittings when executed properly and tested are much less likely to _start leaking_. the issue is that the flares have a tendency to work harden during the constant vibration and thermal cycling and eventually give up.
- derekp7 3y agoI was wondering what the overall efficiency would be if you still used gas, but had that gas power a combustion engine to drive the heat pump compressor, while also reclaiming the heat from the engine and exhaust? Would that be more efficient than burning gas at a peaker plant to convert to electricity to run the heat pump?
- ct0 3y agoSeems like this exists for non single family home applications. https://www.yanmar.com/global/energy/ghp/vrf/merits.html https://www.yanmar.com/global/energy/ghp/vrf/merits.html
- post_break 3y agoI wonder if we will ever see them switch to R-1234YF refrigerant. "While R-134a has a Global Warming Potential of 1300, R-1234yf’s GWP is less than 1." The only issue is the higher pressures and the fact that it's somewhat flammable might be why. I will say, my heat pump dryer, while it has removed some buttons from shirts, has exceeded my expectations on energy usage. It's night and day compared to my toaster I had before. And possibly this senator got a bad heat pump setup. Sample size of one although the leaking being common is not good.
- ct0 3y agoIn your experience, does your heat pump dryer actually dry in a similar amount of time to a conventional electric dryer?
- seszett 3y agoMy heat pump drier dries a full load (8 kg) of cotton in about 4 hours. My only other experience was a huge, old unit when I lived in North America and I don't really remember if it was faster, but it absolutely destroyed any piece of cloth that wasn't resistant enough, especially anything with elastics. My current one is as gentle as air drying, no destruction at all.
- post_break 3y agoNope, the toaster had a full load done in like an hour. The heat pump is like 3 hours. But the difference is the heat pump doesn't absolutely destroy my clothes. I'm noticing how much longer my clothes are lasting since switching. It's also so much quieter than the electric. If you are the type of person who goes "oh crap I need to wash every piece of clothing RIGHT NOW" then heat pump isn't for you because of the time penalty.
- tialaramex 3y agoSpecifically, what the heat pump dryer is doing is basically pulling air through the clothing which evaporates some water from the clothes into the air, then cooling the air, which causes water to condense, removing the condensed water and warming the air back up to send through the clothes again. The effect is much closer to the clothes hanging from a line in a garden on a perfect drying day, except it's inside a box. Whereas the other way to do this is just cook the clothes and the water evaporates, then you dump the warm moist air either outside or into a separate dehumidifier which throws much of the energy away. As you observed this is faster, but most people don't need faster if it's unattended. My dishwasher is slower than washing dishes by hand, but I don't need to sit there watching while it does it so who cares?
- jnmandal 3y agoAnytime you have a technology that is marketed ubiquitously as if it's a silver bullet solution, you are going to have disappointed users and implementations that under deliver. Of course it's extremely important to switch people to electrified heating systems, regardless of their efficiency. However it's a little disingenuous to pretend there is nothing but upside here. The upside is for humanity as a whole; for individuals there may be very little noticable changes or improvements, and the systems may be worse than what they are used to.
- tcfhgj 3y agoa (quasi) silver bullet solution, can have legitimate (individual) down sides
- phkahler 3y ago>> Of course it's extremely important to switch people to electrified heating systems, regardless of their efficiency. You could use a gas fired heat pump. It won't work as an air conditioner, but it won't stress the grid and could even work when the power goes out.
- tcfhgj 3y agoyou are better of adding with a gas plant to the grid, which can be up to 84% efficient (if you reuse the heat generated by the turbine as well) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combined_cycle_power_plant https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combined_cycle_power_plant
- osigurdson 3y agoUp to 64% as stated in the article. The 84% efficiency statement is in reference to the theoretical efficiency of a Carnot cycle.
- tcfhgj 3y ago64% for the turbine only
- tcfhgj 3y ago> I do not fault the particular pump that we bought or our installers who were careful and professional. Apparently, however, we lack good rules of thumb to predict how a pump will perform in a particular installation. A 278% estimation turning out as 150% real world performance, certainly was not done very carefully.
- NDizzle 3y agoNo, it works exactly like solar does. The companies say one thing, but reality doesn't match up. It doesn't matter how careful an installation is.
- tcfhgj 3y agoWhy not? The real heating demand can be observed up front and with the typical (or even exact) weather you can easily determine the efficiency of the heat pump. Yeah expect some inaccuracies, but not this huge
- flankstaek 3y agoWhy do you think the manufacturers mislabeled efficiency has any relevance to how the installation team performed?
- tcfhgj 3y agoI would assume the team knows the products they are installing
- waynenilsen 3y agoOP fails to mention total cost of producing the new heat pump and opportunity cost of disposal of the old heat unit.
- endisneigh 3y agoI intuited this as well, which is why I stayed with gas heat. These days I'm even wondering if wood heat with a high efficiency furnace makes sense. There are so many dead trees around me. The carbon is going to go back either way. In the case of decomposition, there may be other negative effects of leaving it on the ground compared to burning it. I haven't given much thought to a way to capture the heat in a way that can be used later. Ideally I can build some giant container of sand with some cinderblock, run some copper through the sand, and heat both using the wood being burned. Then, I could pump water through the copper which is being passively heated from the sand into my existing hot water baseboard, but it's unlikely to be hot enough - oh well. -- I actually looked at some old quotes I found for mini split installs before and after the tax credits Massachusetts introduced and *big shock*, the price of the installs increased about 90% of the tax credit.
- rascul 3y ago> Ideally I can build some giant container of sand with some cinderblock, run some copper through the sand, and heat both using the wood being burned. Then, I could pump water through the copper which is being passively heated from the sand into my existing hot water baseboard, but it's unlikely to be hot enough - oh well. Is that a similar idea to the sand battery in Finland? It was on HN last year. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32006791 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32006791
- throwaway4aday 3y agoIf you have hydronic heating anyways then why not get a wood fired boiler? They're extremely common where I am. Why would you need to store the heat? A wood fire isn't instant on but it doesn't take that long either plus you get the heat from the stove itself well before the baseboards heat up.
- acidburnNSA 3y agoNot OP, but biofuel combustion is not necessarily better than gas from particulate air pollution or climate metrics.
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- jakedata 3y agoThis is why I couple my heat pump operation to solar output from my panels. Any time I can fully self power it is a 100% win. During the darkest and coldest months however, the existing gas boiler takes the lead. My heat pump is 5 years old and has never leaked refrigerant. I also collect the condensate for the gardens.
- osigurdson 3y ago>> During the darkest and coldest months however... How cold are the coldest months?
- jakedata 3y agohttp://www.worldclimate.com/climate/us/massachusetts/framingham http://www.worldclimate.com/climate/us/massachusetts/framing... The averages do not illustrate the extremes very well, we see many days where the nighttime temperatures never rise above 0F.
- maztaim 3y agoIf I were building new in the north, ground-loop heat pumps make more sense, less maintenance, less trying to eek out a temperature difference. You will likely already have the equipment on-site for grading and foundation work. No need to remove material permanently for it…
- nickpeterson 3y agoI’d love to hear experiences on ground source installs in suburbs. I’d love to do one but feel like I’d be forced into a vertical well which I’ve always heard is an outrageous cost. I’d love to be wrong.
- SketchySeaBeast 3y agoI'm also wondering about the cost of maintenance and repair (say, in case of an underground refrigerant leak). I too would love to be wrong - it'd be a decent solution for a cold Albertan winter. It doesn't matter that the air is -40 if you're below the frost line.
- trey-jones 3y agoI have two self-installed ground source heatpump units (6 tons total) in operation since summer of 2016 with no maintenance except for the loop pump. I was using two very old second-hand pumps until last summer (one for each unit), when one impeller completely disintegrated. I took the opportunity to reconfigure the plumbing and wiring a little bit to use only one pump (more modern, theoretically better fit for my system), and it has been smooth sailing since then. We'll see how long the new pump lasts I guess. As for loop installation, I have a few acres and dug a ditch with my dad's backhoe. Most homes around here don't even have room for a septic system, much less a horizontal ground loop. I can't speak to the cost of a vertical system, but I think it would also affect the specs of the loop pump, and not in a good way. Check for tax-incentives as well: I got a 40% tax credit on the units themselves when I bought them. I have to edit to address the underground refrigerant leak: I haven't had to deal with this. I can only say that it would not be a fun time. I think in a properly installed and tested system, it shouldn't really happen outside of freak seismic events though, at least within a human lifetime.
- ab_goat 3y agoBrownberger seems to miss the key fact that you can't run a gas heating system on renewable energy. Just as in switching to an EV isn't going to make things significantly better, switching your heating to heat pump isn't either: Some basic tips from a fellow Bay Stater: 1. Any new or replacement mechanicals should be use heat pumps (water heater too) 2. Make sure your house is well-insulated to get the best bang for the buck 3. The grid has the ability to use greener energy as time goes on, and you can also opt in to renewable suppliers (in MA, at least) 4. Add a solar array and with net metering it becomes a no brainer.
- jojobas 3y agoIs net metering available anywhere at all? Where I am it's long gone, and I hear in some areas they charge you to use your excess energy.
- tcfhgj 3y ago> Brownberger seems to miss the key fact that you can't run a gas heating system on renewable energy. just a small nit pick: In theory you can produce methane from electricity, so it is possible. However the efficiencies are abysmal, which makes this almost always a very bad solution.
- c4mpute 3y ago> Brownberger seems to miss the key fact that you can't run a gas heating system on renewable energy. Of course you can. You can use nat-gas-like gas mixtures from decomposition of different kinds of waste, e.g. biomethane and the like. You can also use hydrogen (within limits) and methane produced from green hydrogen (though usually inefficiently).
- qrush 3y agoJust wanted to shout out that this is my state senator, and he does take feedback seriously (and responds to emails quite quickly!). I doubt he will check this thread out but if you email him he will get back to you.
- hospadar 3y agoThe author does not mention if their system is air-sourced or ground-sourced (aka geothermal) - ground sourced systems typically use 25-50% less energy and are especially well-suited to places with colder temp extremes where an air-sourced system becomes quite inefficient. Downside is more expensive to install (need to bury a bunch of tubes in your yard) [1] http://large.stanford.edu/courses/2016/ph240/holmvik1/docs/doe-ee-0385.pdf http://large.stanford.edu/courses/2016/ph240/holmvik1/docs/d...
- detourdog 3y agoI have a 12,000 sqft building in the northwest corner of Massachusetts. Really well insulated and heated entirely with heat pumps. I have a large solar array to offset the costs. I ending up paying around $1.50 this year for all the electricity. If I factor in my SRECs sales it drops to around $.75. Last august the Governor signed new legislation that increased the the price utilities pay for the KWhs I produce so I expect another reduction in cost. The biggest problem I have is that 5 years ago all the HVAC installers claimed one couldn't use a heat pump in our area. Now we need many more installers than are available. Our local vocational school just added an HVAC heat pump program for the build back better funds.
- daydream 3y ago> The biggest problem I have is that 5 years ago all the HVAC installers claimed one couldn't use a heat pump in our area. Now we need many more installers than are available. Heat pump technology has been advancing rapidly particularly in cold weather performance. I don't know if that was entirely accurate 5 years ago. But it was certainly MORE accurate then particularly for NW Massachusetts. And we certainly do have a lack of good installers right now, unfortunately.
- detourdog 3y agoI got one installed at the time they existed but nobody had seen one work so it was easier to claim it is impossible. What has really advanced is the importation of heat pumps. Daikin makes an Altherma line that is excellent an was removed from the US market a few years ago. Not becuase it doesn't work but becuase the US believe it doesn't work. I often toy with the idea of buying one in Canada. I need a Harry Tuttle of heating engineers.
- nkurz 3y ago> I do not fault the particular pump that we bought or our installers who were careful and professional. I feel like the author may be letting the installers off too easily here. It seems like there are two main possibilities: either no one understands how heat pumps actually work in the real world and none of them meet their claimed efficiencies (possible, but in my estimation not that likely) or the heat pumps he has installed are unsuited for their purpose (or badly installed). I'm inclined to suspect that he was sold the wrong heat pumps. Confirming this suspicion, in an earlier post (https://willbrownsberger.com/our-heat-pump-experience/#comment-76864 https://willbrownsberger.com/our-heat-pump-experience/#comme...) he gives the specs for his heat pumps. I don't know this particular model, but a commenter after him claims they are not the sort of "Cold Climate Heat Pumps" that would be appropriate for Massachusetts. Since this matches the symptoms (adequate heat production but low efficiency) I'm guessing this is the real issue here. I think heat pumps are a great technology, but worry there is going to be a backlash against them unless we can rein in the hype. And something is has gone really wrong if local installers can't be trusted to install a heat pump that is appropriate for the climate they are being installed in. Maybe the best thing he can do as a Massachusetts state senator is to enact more stringent laws preventing the installation of non-cold-climate heat pumps in Massachusetts so others don't suffer the disappointment that he did!
- anonymousab 3y agoOne thing I am learning in doing research for local installers and HVAC companies is that you can't really trust any installer to do it right. Even the highest reviewed company will have tons of monthly reviews about wrongly installed equipment or bad advice to customers. Like buying any major appliance, unless you shell out a commercial fee for a commercial product and contract, you're just gonna be rolling the dice. You can do it yourself but the heat pump unit itself may still vary dramatically from sales specs.
- kkfx 3y agoI think too many do not understand one point of the Green New Deal, perhaps because that point is NOT advertised: convergence toward electricity it's not different than convergence toward IP, it means choosing a tech we need anyway while not the cheapest and use it for almost anything cutting much costs. For instance a heat pump have much less raw materials and need far less high costs alloys than a gas heating system, essentially is cheaper to be produced, and if we can stay on electricity only we can spare the maintenance and expansion costs of gas/oil/* distribution networks. Try to compare classical mechanical clocks vs modern electronic ones: the mechanical one it's far more costly per single unit, the electronic one cost next to nothing per single unit. For EVs it's not different: they have much less parts, less special alloys, less precision needed to produce them. Heat pumps and EVs have both evolution margins, while classic ICEs and gas heating systems have already reached a sort of evolution plateau. Those are the reasons of the Green New Deal: ecology is advertised as the only reason, in reality is a MARGINAL reason, the main reason is reduce much the demand of raw materials (once the transition will be done, of course) and lower much overall production costs. I imaging such reasons are not advertised because most of the benefit will go to those how steer the transition, not to those who pay it. But that's is and understand it and it's need means also steer the actual transition in a way more interesting to the people than a very small cohort of cleptocrats.