4 ms·

I don't understand this blog post. The authors says that HN is great for discussions. Then they go on to suggest a different ranking algorithm? Why? To answer t

I don't understand this blog post. The authors says that HN is great for discussions. Then they go on to suggest a different ranking algorithm? Why? To answer the authors question: I would change absolutely nothing about HN. It's great for discussions as is. Edit: I suppose there is some insinuation that HN doesn't really use the original algorithm, and this is the author's attempt to reconstruct what's going on. Is that what I was missing?

jasfi 4y ago
If it works, don't fix it. You'll most likely break it.
- jitix 4y ago
  I think product management across the industry needs to take this more seriously. In my personal experience, YouTube and Windows 11 are some recent examples of usability degradation due to unnecessary changes.
  - Dalewyn 4y ago
    I would argue they are taking it seriously, just not in the way most of us would like.
    - shjake 4y ago
      Well they need ways to justify their jobs and advance their careers. Which is perfectly understandable, UX is almost always is secondary to that (as it should be from the perspective of individuals).
- jorvi 4y ago
  Is it working? Post ranking works pretty well, but as far as discussions go I often see insightful responses sent into low-contrast oblivion whilst a glib comment or quip gets accolades.
  - jasfi 4y ago
    Others might disagree with your idea of what to upvote. It's very hard to benchmark something like this.
  - KronisLV 4y ago
    > Is it working? In my experience, HN seems okay for reading and participating in meaningful discussion. Comments that don't contribute or are inappropriate don't stay in sight for long (possibly due to the community upholding the guidelines), whereas useful discussions and references to projects tend to stay towards the top. I don't always agree with what sits at the top, but if nothing else it's civilized and reasoned. In some respects HN has the typical issue of most attention focusing on the first page posts and most discussion being in one or two top level comments, but that's just how people engage with the content, short of randomization there's no way around that. There will always be a top comment and everything else will receive slightly more lukewarm reception and activity.
  - bnralt 4y ago
    Two big issues I've noticed with post ranking are: 1. There seems to be a group of people that abuse the flag button to get stories downvoted. You notice this when highly upvoted stories with a lot of points suddenly drop from the top and fall quickly beyond older stories with many fewer votes. For instance, there seems to be a group that was mass flagging submissions about Rob Lee's recent death until one was made that didn't mention his cause of death and explicitly forbid discussion of it in the comments. 2. Partly because of #1, you can have a topic with a lot of votes at the top of the page suddenly drop to page 5 and disappear within a very short amount of time. This significantly lowers the incentive to spend any time writing a thoughtful response or researching useful information, because even spending 20-30 minutes on a response might mean that no one is going to see what you wrote.
    - haswell 4y ago
      > There seems to be a group of people that abuse the flag button…until one was made that didn't mention his cause of death I’m not sure that I’d characterize this as abuse. HN stays interesting by avoiding flame bait topics and part of the realization of the community guidelines happens via this flag feature. One way to reframe #1 is that the community’s self-moderation features are working as designed, and that any post about Bob Lee’s death that somehow editorializes it or positions it in a way that is likely to lead to political debates is against the site guidelines and thus were removed appropriately. Regarding #2, this has happened to me more than once, and while frustrating, it made me think more about posts I encounter before commenting. When a post fits the criteria for “potential flame war” or “clearly outside of site guidelines”, I flag it instead of commenting, even if I know that at the core, the topic could be an interesting one. Most things get posted more than once, and usually at least one of the posts is within guidelines. When I do lose a comment to a flagged post, I’ll reuse it in a more level headed discussion about the topic.
- bitshiftfaced 4y ago
  This is Hacker News. Over engineering things is part of our cultural heritage.
vignesh_warar 4y ago
Yes, this is just a thought experiment, and the ranking algorithm is based on discussions. > Given that discussions are my favorite part, why don't we apply PageRank for every user based on the upvotes they receive for the comments they leave on any post, and replace the P (points) value in the current version of the HN algorithm?
- shjake 4y ago
  > why don’t we Because that would lead to absolutely terrible longterm outcomes due to obvious reasons.
ggm 4y ago
Totally agree. Ain't broke, don't fix it.
A4ET8a8uTh0 4y ago
<< I don't understand this blog post. Well, the article is something of an ad. The author discusses current ranking and effectively proves that it could be gamed to an extent ( author links his non-SEO search engine, which obviously you cannot do unless you are deep into SEO stuff, which includes HN ranking algorithm ). The complaint is mildly self-serving, but only mildly so. FWIW, it worked on me. Still, I will echo what others said. Despite my grievances with HN at times, don't change what ain't broken.

jasfi 4y ago

If it works, don't fix it. You'll most likely break it.

jitix 4y ago
I think product management across the industry needs to take this more seriously. In my personal experience, YouTube and Windows 11 are some recent examples of usability degradation due to unnecessary changes.
- Dalewyn 4y ago
  I would argue they are taking it seriously, just not in the way most of us would like.
  - shjake 4y ago
    Well they need ways to justify their jobs and advance their careers. Which is perfectly understandable, UX is almost always is secondary to that (as it should be from the perspective of individuals).
jorvi 4y ago
Is it working? Post ranking works pretty well, but as far as discussions go I often see insightful responses sent into low-contrast oblivion whilst a glib comment or quip gets accolades.
- jasfi 4y ago
  Others might disagree with your idea of what to upvote. It's very hard to benchmark something like this.
- KronisLV 4y ago
  > Is it working? In my experience, HN seems okay for reading and participating in meaningful discussion. Comments that don't contribute or are inappropriate don't stay in sight for long (possibly due to the community upholding the guidelines), whereas useful discussions and references to projects tend to stay towards the top. I don't always agree with what sits at the top, but if nothing else it's civilized and reasoned. In some respects HN has the typical issue of most attention focusing on the first page posts and most discussion being in one or two top level comments, but that's just how people engage with the content, short of randomization there's no way around that. There will always be a top comment and everything else will receive slightly more lukewarm reception and activity.
- bnralt 4y ago
  Two big issues I've noticed with post ranking are: 1. There seems to be a group of people that abuse the flag button to get stories downvoted. You notice this when highly upvoted stories with a lot of points suddenly drop from the top and fall quickly beyond older stories with many fewer votes. For instance, there seems to be a group that was mass flagging submissions about Rob Lee's recent death until one was made that didn't mention his cause of death and explicitly forbid discussion of it in the comments. 2. Partly because of #1, you can have a topic with a lot of votes at the top of the page suddenly drop to page 5 and disappear within a very short amount of time. This significantly lowers the incentive to spend any time writing a thoughtful response or researching useful information, because even spending 20-30 minutes on a response might mean that no one is going to see what you wrote.
  - haswell 4y ago
    > There seems to be a group of people that abuse the flag button…until one was made that didn't mention his cause of death I’m not sure that I’d characterize this as abuse. HN stays interesting by avoiding flame bait topics and part of the realization of the community guidelines happens via this flag feature. One way to reframe #1 is that the community’s self-moderation features are working as designed, and that any post about Bob Lee’s death that somehow editorializes it or positions it in a way that is likely to lead to political debates is against the site guidelines and thus were removed appropriately. Regarding #2, this has happened to me more than once, and while frustrating, it made me think more about posts I encounter before commenting. When a post fits the criteria for “potential flame war” or “clearly outside of site guidelines”, I flag it instead of commenting, even if I know that at the core, the topic could be an interesting one. Most things get posted more than once, and usually at least one of the posts is within guidelines. When I do lose a comment to a flagged post, I’ll reuse it in a more level headed discussion about the topic.
bitshiftfaced 4y ago
This is Hacker News. Over engineering things is part of our cultural heritage.

vignesh_warar 4y ago

Yes, this is just a thought experiment, and the ranking algorithm is based on discussions. > Given that discussions are my favorite part, why don't we apply PageRank for every user based on the upvotes they receive for the comments they leave on any post, and replace the P (points) value in the current version of the HN algorithm?

shjake 4y ago
> why don’t we Because that would lead to absolutely terrible longterm outcomes due to obvious reasons.

ggm 4y ago

Totally agree. Ain't broke, don't fix it.

A4ET8a8uTh0 4y ago

<< I don't understand this blog post. Well, the article is something of an ad. The author discusses current ranking and effectively proves that it could be gamed to an extent ( author links his non-SEO search engine, which obviously you cannot do unless you are deep into SEO stuff, which includes HN ranking algorithm ). The complaint is mildly self-serving, but only mildly so. FWIW, it worked on me. Still, I will echo what others said. Despite my grievances with HN at times, don't change what ain't broken.