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I'd be interested in a Mac once Linux is viable on it. OSX feels outright hostile to power users at this point.

suction 3y ago
[dead]
_hao 3y ago
I've used a Mac in my previous job and it was OK experience. The M1's hardware is truly great (I bought one for myself as well, since I didn't have a laptop at the time) and I like the portability. There are a lot of smaller features that I really like, but the overall experience for development is just not there. I use mostly my desktop setup for dev work. I can attach different machines to my monitor or use picture in picture or side by side (49" ultrawide). Last year I was back on Linux for a few months to see if that was going to be "the year of the Linux desktop" for me. I've done this every year for a few months for the past decade. However, unfortunately yet again I've went back to Windows 10. The same nagging issues with things just randomly stopping working on Linux keep showing up after time. Ten years of the same thing. Windows (with WSL) despite all of its flaws and bullshit seems to be the best OS for development. I find that very sad to be honest.
- davidmurdoch 3y ago
  I'm switching back to Windows after 5 yrs on Linux. There are many things Linux is not just better at, but so many things windows just can't do (because devs haven't bother to make it work). Do you find that wsl is all you need to run all the dev tooling and software for development, or do you have to spin up a Linux VM?
  - _hao 3y ago
    I do most of my back-end development inside WSL (C#/C++, some JS). There's a way to run GUI Linux apps from WSL as well (for example GitKraken which I use on both Windows and from WSL) which is awesome - https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/wsl/tutorials/gui-apps https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/wsl/tutorials/gui-.... Docker Desktop on Windows has full support inside WSL and integrates seamlessly i.e. can access running containers on your Win install from WSL without issues etc. One thing I have to highlight is that you shouldn't do dev from WSL inside windows folders (my main work folders are under WSL's /home). File access is very slow, If you want to do that I think you can go for WSL 1, not 2, but I won't bother honestly. Just use WSL2 and do your work on Linux folders. For Windows I use PowerToys extensively to bring window layouts and stacking the way I want via FancyZones. It's not exactly like the window tiling managers you'll find on Linux, but it does the job well enough.
Someone 3y ago
s/power users/OS tinkerers. Not everybody who tinkers with their OS is a power user, and there are power users that (more or less) only care about how well Excel runs. I also think “feels hostile” is the right expression. Apple isn’t hostile to OS tinkerers, but has different priorities, and doesn’t cater for them as much as they would want.
threeseed 3y ago
Not sure what your definition of a power user is. But I have root access, can install every UNIX package under the sun with homebrew and can disable all security protections as needed. I also have a Linux workstation and I can't name anything it can do that my MacBook can't other than playing with niche technologies e.g. NVMEoF, Octane.
- smoldesu 3y ago
  >can install every UNIX package under the sun with homebrew Even this one? https://www.nvidia.com/en-us/drivers/unix/ https://www.nvidia.com/en-us/drivers/unix/
  - UncleEntity 3y ago
    Does it even use a nvidia chip? Their stuff doesn’t work with my AMD APU and the oppression I feel is oppressive.
    - smoldesu 3y ago
      It will install just fine on your AMD APU, it just won't do anything until you plug in Nvidia hardware.
- blep_ 3y ago
  Can I replace the window manager with i3/sway?
illiarian 3y ago
I've used Macbooks as my primary system since 2008. No idea what you're about. Though there is one decidedly hostile decision: effing XCode Commandline Tools.
jillesvangurp 3y ago
Apple hardware has a lot more capability than their software allows you to use. If Apple was interested in growing their market share further, there are a lot of gains are to be had in supporting non Apple software platforms on Apple hardware. Linux is an obvious one because of Asahi Linux. They've done a lot of the hard work already despite Apple not lifting a finger. Imagine how well that could work with a little Apple support. Even just unofficially. Share a bit of documentation, toss in a few developer resources, etc. Not that hard. Making sure their CPU/GPUs work perfectly with e.g. Steam and making sure that game studios are able to target Apple hardware would make a lot of difference for their appeal to gamers. Steam, of course, is also starting to work in Asahi Linux as well. There is really no good technical reason why that couldn't work on Mac OS natively. Of course the same reason that this is a good idea also means Apple won't do it because they seem to prefer controlling their software ecosystem at the cost of failing to grow it. So Metal is nice but completely useless for gaming, or indeed most consumer focused use cases involving 3D (except for the Apple sanctioned ones). OpenCL/OpenGL barely work at this point. Forget about vulkan or directx. The whole AR/VR thing is perpetually not happening at all on Apple hardware. Until such time that they choose to release some Apple branded hardware for this of course. They are also not really investing in making their AI optimized hardware work for mainstream AI developers. Etc. Anyway, Apple could make a really nice gaming focused console based on e.g. the mac mini. Not that hard. It would not require a lot of changes. Basically beef up the Apple TV UI, make sure games actually can be ported to it, and job done. Not that hard. But as long as their OS is locked down and developer hostile, none of that will happen.
- Godel_unicode 3y ago
  > It would not require a lot of changes. It would require Apple to stop being Apple. Give up their App Store revenue (Steam) and give up their proprietary 3D API in favor of a standard? Might as well ask for a Start button.
  - panick21_ 3y ago
    Not really. Supporting standard 3D API on that hardware wouldn't be that hard. They don't have that much different hardware that supporting a driver for it would be that difficult. > Give up their App Store revenue They are not giving up anything they currently earn, they would be adding sales of hardware and games. They could make a deal with Steam or make their own steam and make it easy for Games to port their games to it. They could likely find some way to monetize this.
driscoll42 3y ago
I'd be interested if I could run Windows. I vastly prefer the Windows OS experience to OSX. I got a MacBook for work and tried it for five months and exchanged it, very happy with the choice.
ThorsBane 3y ago
I am curious what examples of power usage you are thinking of.
tough 3y ago
I made the jump a couple days back, and Asahi Linux for M1's is great, it's not everything fully supported, but nice to have alongside mac for a more work OS
pjmlp 3y ago
Once upon a time, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MkLinux https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MkLinux I rather use the NeXTSTEP heritage.

[dead]

_hao 3y ago

I've used a Mac in my previous job and it was OK experience. The M1's hardware is truly great (I bought one for myself as well, since I didn't have a laptop at the time) and I like the portability. There are a lot of smaller features that I really like, but the overall experience for development is just not there. I use mostly my desktop setup for dev work. I can attach different machines to my monitor or use picture in picture or side by side (49" ultrawide). Last year I was back on Linux for a few months to see if that was going to be "the year of the Linux desktop" for me. I've done this every year for a few months for the past decade. However, unfortunately yet again I've went back to Windows 10. The same nagging issues with things just randomly stopping working on Linux keep showing up after time. Ten years of the same thing. Windows (with WSL) despite all of its flaws and bullshit seems to be the best OS for development. I find that very sad to be honest.

davidmurdoch 3y ago
I'm switching back to Windows after 5 yrs on Linux. There are many things Linux is not just better at, but so many things windows just can't do (because devs haven't bother to make it work). Do you find that wsl is all you need to run all the dev tooling and software for development, or do you have to spin up a Linux VM?
- _hao 3y ago
  I do most of my back-end development inside WSL (C#/C++, some JS). There's a way to run GUI Linux apps from WSL as well (for example GitKraken which I use on both Windows and from WSL) which is awesome - https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/wsl/tutorials/gui-apps https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/wsl/tutorials/gui-.... Docker Desktop on Windows has full support inside WSL and integrates seamlessly i.e. can access running containers on your Win install from WSL without issues etc. One thing I have to highlight is that you shouldn't do dev from WSL inside windows folders (my main work folders are under WSL's /home). File access is very slow, If you want to do that I think you can go for WSL 1, not 2, but I won't bother honestly. Just use WSL2 and do your work on Linux folders. For Windows I use PowerToys extensively to bring window layouts and stacking the way I want via FancyZones. It's not exactly like the window tiling managers you'll find on Linux, but it does the job well enough.

Someone 3y ago

s/power users/OS tinkerers. Not everybody who tinkers with their OS is a power user, and there are power users that (more or less) only care about how well Excel runs. I also think “feels hostile” is the right expression. Apple isn’t hostile to OS tinkerers, but has different priorities, and doesn’t cater for them as much as they would want.

threeseed 3y ago

Not sure what your definition of a power user is. But I have root access, can install every UNIX package under the sun with homebrew and can disable all security protections as needed. I also have a Linux workstation and I can't name anything it can do that my MacBook can't other than playing with niche technologies e.g. NVMEoF, Octane.

smoldesu 3y ago
>can install every UNIX package under the sun with homebrew Even this one? https://www.nvidia.com/en-us/drivers/unix/ https://www.nvidia.com/en-us/drivers/unix/
- UncleEntity 3y ago
  Does it even use a nvidia chip? Their stuff doesn’t work with my AMD APU and the oppression I feel is oppressive.
  - smoldesu 3y ago
    It will install just fine on your AMD APU, it just won't do anything until you plug in Nvidia hardware.
blep_ 3y ago
Can I replace the window manager with i3/sway?

illiarian 3y ago

I've used Macbooks as my primary system since 2008. No idea what you're about. Though there is one decidedly hostile decision: effing XCode Commandline Tools.

jillesvangurp 3y ago

Apple hardware has a lot more capability than their software allows you to use. If Apple was interested in growing their market share further, there are a lot of gains are to be had in supporting non Apple software platforms on Apple hardware. Linux is an obvious one because of Asahi Linux. They've done a lot of the hard work already despite Apple not lifting a finger. Imagine how well that could work with a little Apple support. Even just unofficially. Share a bit of documentation, toss in a few developer resources, etc. Not that hard. Making sure their CPU/GPUs work perfectly with e.g. Steam and making sure that game studios are able to target Apple hardware would make a lot of difference for their appeal to gamers. Steam, of course, is also starting to work in Asahi Linux as well. There is really no good technical reason why that couldn't work on Mac OS natively. Of course the same reason that this is a good idea also means Apple won't do it because they seem to prefer controlling their software ecosystem at the cost of failing to grow it. So Metal is nice but completely useless for gaming, or indeed most consumer focused use cases involving 3D (except for the Apple sanctioned ones). OpenCL/OpenGL barely work at this point. Forget about vulkan or directx. The whole AR/VR thing is perpetually not happening at all on Apple hardware. Until such time that they choose to release some Apple branded hardware for this of course. They are also not really investing in making their AI optimized hardware work for mainstream AI developers. Etc. Anyway, Apple could make a really nice gaming focused console based on e.g. the mac mini. Not that hard. It would not require a lot of changes. Basically beef up the Apple TV UI, make sure games actually can be ported to it, and job done. Not that hard. But as long as their OS is locked down and developer hostile, none of that will happen.

Godel_unicode 3y ago
> It would not require a lot of changes. It would require Apple to stop being Apple. Give up their App Store revenue (Steam) and give up their proprietary 3D API in favor of a standard? Might as well ask for a Start button.
- panick21_ 3y ago
  Not really. Supporting standard 3D API on that hardware wouldn't be that hard. They don't have that much different hardware that supporting a driver for it would be that difficult. > Give up their App Store revenue They are not giving up anything they currently earn, they would be adding sales of hardware and games. They could make a deal with Steam or make their own steam and make it easy for Games to port their games to it. They could likely find some way to monetize this.

driscoll42 3y ago

I'd be interested if I could run Windows. I vastly prefer the Windows OS experience to OSX. I got a MacBook for work and tried it for five months and exchanged it, very happy with the choice.

ThorsBane 3y ago

I am curious what examples of power usage you are thinking of.

tough 3y ago

I made the jump a couple days back, and Asahi Linux for M1's is great, it's not everything fully supported, but nice to have alongside mac for a more work OS

pjmlp 3y ago

Once upon a time, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MkLinux https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MkLinux I rather use the NeXTSTEP heritage.