8 ms·

Super-rich abandoning Norway at record rate as wealth tax rises slightly

27 points by jimnotgym 4y ago

jimnotgym 4y ago
I suppose the Government could change the rules to adjust for this. Change the rules for non-domiciled people reducing the days they were able to spend in country, for instance.
- cinntaile 4y ago
  Rules like this already exist.
  - jimnotgym 4y ago
    Indeed, but they could lower the number of days...
- TigerTeamX 4y ago
  Ahh Yes, the privileged of being born a certain place makes you forced to continuously pay them money... That's definitely not slavery
raverbashing 4y ago
Some people think the people that are most willing and capable of rearranging their financial situation won't when it's advantageous to them > Ole Gjems-Onstad, a professor emeritus at the Norwegian Business School, said he estimated that those who had left the country had a combined fortune of at least NOK 600bn. (which is around 60bn EUR), well this does not sound like a good idea
- kevviiinn 4y ago
  Why, were they spending that money or was it just sitting in bank accounts? Why does non circulating money matter? It seems like a drain more than anything else
  - refurb 4y ago
    The only money that doesnt circulate is cash under your bed. I doubt they are doing that. Bank deposits are lent out. Equity investments enter the system, etc.
aaron695 4y ago
[dead]
oifjsidjf 4y ago
>>Some politicians are, as you know, blaming the wealthy people moving. These politicians truly are the stupidest form of humans alive. >> “The model in Norway is that everyone should contribute relevant to ability and therefore those that have a greater ability to pay taxes, should pay a little more.” Since taxes are based on % rich already paid more.
- zaroth 4y ago
  Not just percentage but a progressive percentage. So they paid even a higher percentage already! I could understand wealth taxes in a deflationary environment only. In an inflationary environment wealth taxes are an abomination. Instituting them against only the ultra-wealthy is just “boiling the frog” as the income targets will only possibly go down over time.
  - permo-w 4y ago
    you’ve got that the wrong way round. tax raises reduce inflation
    - TigerTeamX 4y ago
      Taxes increase inflation. You buy a steak at a restaurant. If they have to pay 50% extra for their employees in tax, and 50% extra for the meat then it will be more expensive for them to sell you the steak.
      - Matheus28 4y ago
        Modern Monetary Theory disagrees with you. Increasing taxes reduces spending & money supply, thus reducing inflation.
        TigerTeamX 4y ago
        I don't take MMT serious. It has been wrong about almost everything. The theories are just theories without substance or evidence.
TigerTeamX 4y ago
Wealth taxes are probably the most unfair tax that exist as they negatively compound. a 1% wealth tax will make you lose 10% over 10 years. Factor in inflation and you lose maybe 50% of your wealth real quick. This ensures you can never really retire and you have to continue to work no matter what. Scandinavians love their countries and most would never want to move away. Many rich people could just move a few hundred kilometers in, but yet they haven't even through many places your effective tax rate is 50-80%. They believe in their country, but at some point it just becomes too ridiculously to stay.
- vkou 4y ago
  What? Income taxes are far more painful for the middle class, because they prevent them from accumulating any wealth in the first place. And since the middle class spends most of its life trying to accumulate wealth, and only a small part of it living off it, income taxes make up a vastly larger share of what they will pay. Wealth taxes horrify the rich, which is why they try so hard to convince someone making 60k/year from their job, and 5k/year from their investments that taxes on the latter are what keeps them from becoming a millionaire.
- rnk 4y ago
  That's a silly argument. Every home owner in America pays a "wealth tax" in the form of a percentage of the value of their house. Somehow we homeowners generally manage to survive, most of us actually have growing property values over time. Rich people say I can't just sell some of my valuable assets to pay the wealth tax, they might not generate cash. Well tough luck, we homeowners have to deal with that too.
- ChuckNorris89 4y ago
  Wealth taxes are unfair for the middle class they inevitably end up hitting. Multi billionaires being taxed on their wealth is not really unfair but they never really end up paying those taxes as they have access to legal tax avoidance loopholes so it's always the well off middle class that ends up footing the tax bill. Wealth taxes should be dependent on what you do with your wealth. Is your wealth creating jobs, start-ups, education, research and innovation that benefit society and the environment? How about no wealth taxes for you. Is your wealth just sitting in hoarded land and real estate, looking to appreciate or for rent seeking opportunities? How about pay up or go fuck yourself.
xrd 4y ago
It's really funny later in the article where the billionaire says he didn't have friends at first, but then several other Norwegians (presumably also tax dodgers) moved there and now they can have coffee. I'm really curious about the coffee shop that they all go to.
- red-iron-pine 4y ago
  I'd be less curious about the shop and more about how much they tip
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
demarq 4y ago
This article is missing some key numbers, % of tax that these “lost” receipts make up. The investment that 30 people make up for the entire economy. How much investment does the country loose if any?
- kevviiinn 4y ago
  All they lost were money sinks. A place that money gets sucked out of the economy and does nothing, so it's a benefit overall
spicyusername 4y ago
More than 30 Norwegian billionaires and multimillionaires left Norway in 2022 And the country is better off without them, good riddance. This is obviously a propaganda piece for why we shouldn't have progressive taxation. Articles like this are a clear attempt at keeping the Overton window[1] on the side of regressive tax policies. Sorry, I'm not buying it. There's no fundamental right that you should be allowed to siphon that much wealth out of the global financial system. Pretending that everyone would actually be better off if we continued to let these people lock up all the wealth is a joke. This little shell game they're playing only works today because the global community is only just now waking up to the grift that's been taking place. 1: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overton_window https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overton_window
- permo-w 4y ago
  I expect better from The Guardian to be honest
  - danielfoster 4y ago
    What would have made the reporting better?
- tr_user 4y ago
  100%, I keep seeing this argument being trotted out like every country should have a race to the bottom to keep billionaires within their borders whatever that means.
- hotpotamus 4y ago
  I don't really think you can stop them at the global financial system level, but I would think at the national level, a country could at least control their financial system; it doesn't seem like you have much sovereignty over your nation otherwise.
- Laaas 4y ago
  How is this a propaganda piece? It seems quite neutral, including both perspectives of the debate, and The Guardian itself is biased to the left! The article doesn't seem to include anything beyond factual reporting.
permo-w 4y ago
[flagged]

27 points by jimnotgym 4y ago

I suppose the Government could change the rules to adjust for this. Change the rules for non-domiciled people reducing the days they were able to spend in country, for instance.

cinntaile 4y ago
Rules like this already exist.
- jimnotgym 4y ago
  Indeed, but they could lower the number of days...
TigerTeamX 4y ago
Ahh Yes, the privileged of being born a certain place makes you forced to continuously pay them money... That's definitely not slavery

raverbashing 4y ago

Some people think the people that are most willing and capable of rearranging their financial situation won't when it's advantageous to them > Ole Gjems-Onstad, a professor emeritus at the Norwegian Business School, said he estimated that those who had left the country had a combined fortune of at least NOK 600bn. (which is around 60bn EUR), well this does not sound like a good idea

kevviiinn 4y ago
Why, were they spending that money or was it just sitting in bank accounts? Why does non circulating money matter? It seems like a drain more than anything else
- refurb 4y ago
  The only money that doesnt circulate is cash under your bed. I doubt they are doing that. Bank deposits are lent out. Equity investments enter the system, etc.

aaron695 4y ago

[dead]

oifjsidjf 4y ago

>>Some politicians are, as you know, blaming the wealthy people moving. These politicians truly are the stupidest form of humans alive. >> “The model in Norway is that everyone should contribute relevant to ability and therefore those that have a greater ability to pay taxes, should pay a little more.” Since taxes are based on % rich already paid more.

zaroth 4y ago
Not just percentage but a progressive percentage. So they paid even a higher percentage already! I could understand wealth taxes in a deflationary environment only. In an inflationary environment wealth taxes are an abomination. Instituting them against only the ultra-wealthy is just “boiling the frog” as the income targets will only possibly go down over time.
- permo-w 4y ago
  you’ve got that the wrong way round. tax raises reduce inflation
  - TigerTeamX 4y ago
    Taxes increase inflation. You buy a steak at a restaurant. If they have to pay 50% extra for their employees in tax, and 50% extra for the meat then it will be more expensive for them to sell you the steak.
    - Matheus28 4y ago
      Modern Monetary Theory disagrees with you. Increasing taxes reduces spending & money supply, thus reducing inflation.
      - TigerTeamX 4y ago
        I don't take MMT serious. It has been wrong about almost everything. The theories are just theories without substance or evidence.

TigerTeamX 4y ago

Wealth taxes are probably the most unfair tax that exist as they negatively compound. a 1% wealth tax will make you lose 10% over 10 years. Factor in inflation and you lose maybe 50% of your wealth real quick. This ensures you can never really retire and you have to continue to work no matter what. Scandinavians love their countries and most would never want to move away. Many rich people could just move a few hundred kilometers in, but yet they haven't even through many places your effective tax rate is 50-80%. They believe in their country, but at some point it just becomes too ridiculously to stay.

vkou 4y ago
What? Income taxes are far more painful for the middle class, because they prevent them from accumulating any wealth in the first place. And since the middle class spends most of its life trying to accumulate wealth, and only a small part of it living off it, income taxes make up a vastly larger share of what they will pay. Wealth taxes horrify the rich, which is why they try so hard to convince someone making 60k/year from their job, and 5k/year from their investments that taxes on the latter are what keeps them from becoming a millionaire.
rnk 4y ago
That's a silly argument. Every home owner in America pays a "wealth tax" in the form of a percentage of the value of their house. Somehow we homeowners generally manage to survive, most of us actually have growing property values over time. Rich people say I can't just sell some of my valuable assets to pay the wealth tax, they might not generate cash. Well tough luck, we homeowners have to deal with that too.
ChuckNorris89 4y ago
Wealth taxes are unfair for the middle class they inevitably end up hitting. Multi billionaires being taxed on their wealth is not really unfair but they never really end up paying those taxes as they have access to legal tax avoidance loopholes so it's always the well off middle class that ends up footing the tax bill. Wealth taxes should be dependent on what you do with your wealth. Is your wealth creating jobs, start-ups, education, research and innovation that benefit society and the environment? How about no wealth taxes for you. Is your wealth just sitting in hoarded land and real estate, looking to appreciate or for rent seeking opportunities? How about pay up or go fuck yourself.

xrd 4y ago

It's really funny later in the article where the billionaire says he didn't have friends at first, but then several other Norwegians (presumably also tax dodgers) moved there and now they can have coffee. I'm really curious about the coffee shop that they all go to.

red-iron-pine 4y ago
I'd be less curious about the shop and more about how much they tip
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]

demarq 4y ago

This article is missing some key numbers, % of tax that these “lost” receipts make up. The investment that 30 people make up for the entire economy. How much investment does the country loose if any?

kevviiinn 4y ago
All they lost were money sinks. A place that money gets sucked out of the economy and does nothing, so it's a benefit overall

spicyusername 4y ago

More than 30 Norwegian billionaires and multimillionaires left Norway in 2022 And the country is better off without them, good riddance. This is obviously a propaganda piece for why we shouldn't have progressive taxation. Articles like this are a clear attempt at keeping the Overton window[1] on the side of regressive tax policies. Sorry, I'm not buying it. There's no fundamental right that you should be allowed to siphon that much wealth out of the global financial system. Pretending that everyone would actually be better off if we continued to let these people lock up all the wealth is a joke. This little shell game they're playing only works today because the global community is only just now waking up to the grift that's been taking place. 1: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overton_window https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overton_window

permo-w 4y ago
I expect better from The Guardian to be honest
- danielfoster 4y ago
  What would have made the reporting better?
tr_user 4y ago
100%, I keep seeing this argument being trotted out like every country should have a race to the bottom to keep billionaires within their borders whatever that means.
hotpotamus 4y ago
I don't really think you can stop them at the global financial system level, but I would think at the national level, a country could at least control their financial system; it doesn't seem like you have much sovereignty over your nation otherwise.
Laaas 4y ago
How is this a propaganda piece? It seems quite neutral, including both perspectives of the debate, and The Guardian itself is biased to the left! The article doesn't seem to include anything beyond factual reporting.

permo-w 4y ago

[flagged]