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It really isn't "obviously untrue". I can't speak for the Salvation Army but they need to examine themselves if they aren't unconditionally offering help to tho

by b800h 4y ago

It really isn't "obviously untrue". I can't speak for the Salvation Army but they need to examine themselves if they aren't unconditionally offering help to those in need. I appreciate that I'm in danger of doing a "No True Scotsman" fallacy here, but my original point stands. This is evidence of a lack of the core precept of Christianity.

Broken_Hippo 4y ago
It doesn't really matter what you think the core precept of Christianity is. It is great if you practice differently. I know some people do try to be kind. As I said, "At least it isn't true across the board". It is very obvious that folks aren't unconditionally offering help to those in need, using the banner of Christianity to justify it. And to justify homophobia, racism, misogyny, and a slew of other things. And what I've seen very little of is other folks speaking out. I see folks protesting comprehensive sex ed and birth control, while these shelters (and others) get no pushback. Do better if you want views like this to change. Be loud and help folks.
- b800h 4y ago
  > Do better Bit presumptuous. The original point was about a desire for drug users to "atone" for their behaviour in order to get help. It's utterly unchristian, literally flies in the face of the core Christian value. There are a bunch of noisy people in the southern states of the US who don't understand why the Old Testament is included in the Bible. It's a huge problem, and it's showing up in this conversation.
  - prox 4y ago
    The thing is that so much atrocities has been done under the banner of Christianity that it delutes the good people who seem honestly committed to the core value “love your neighbor” Often that tenet is being absolutely debased by making it “love your neighbor, except if he is gay, trans, woke, liberal, communist, black, fill in the blank” Jesus himself proclaimed “love god and love your neighbor” to be the core and heart of his teaching, yet instead you have people fighting over the stupidest things in the bible just to be “right”, creating tons of denominations that make no sense at all. If Jesus values are just, they should be universal values. And his core teaching does echo tenets of reciprocation.
    - LawTalkingGuy 4y ago
      > yet instead you have people fighting over the stupidest things in the bible just to be “right”, creating tons of denominations that make no sense at all. Isn't that what we want? People laying our their reasoning and their ideology on paper, and leaving a parent group whose actions they can't condone? This is the calling them out. Compare and contrast to ideologies and areas where people who published these opinions would be killed for their heresy. No doubt many/most of the sects are stupider than what they broke away from, but sometimes, critically, they are vastly superior. I'm not religious but for example I can recognize the value of Martin Luther's reformation.
      - prox 4y ago
        I see where you are coming from. I think the distinction is either whether to look at it from an ideological or core tennet perspective or a more political/ organizational perspective. So arguing from the second perspective the problem with the breakaway reformations we have seen is that they often tend to deal with the “true scotsman” fallacy, where they double down on rules and regulations in the bible just to be worthy and a “true” Christian, sometimes coupled with a “holier than thou” attitude. (Obviously generalizing centuries of history here) Instead of the movement to a more universal “love thy neighbor” seems a more fitting approach, if it’s truly universal as Christianity claims.
        LawTalkingGuy 4y ago
        > the problem with the breakaway reformations we have seen is that they often tend to deal with the “true scotsman” fallacy, where they double down on rules and regulations in the bible just to be worthy and a “true” Christian ... Instead of the movement to a more universal “love thy neighbor” seems a more fitting approach It feels that's exactly what you did though. Pick a favored feature and declare that people not doing it predominantly that way are wrong. > if it’s truly universal as Christianity claims. Even if they believe that you should love the sinner I don't see where their traditions say they should lay down and let themselves be victimized because they can't regulate people they "love". > “true” Christian, sometimes coupled with a “holier than thou” attitude. (Obviously generalizing centuries of history here) Those centuries of history led to here, where in a country founded largely by Christians on Christian principles, you're allowed to say you don't think any of them are doing right. And you and I - total heathens, receive no threats, no hate.
saiya-jin 4y ago
I think both of you are right. Core concept of christianity is universal love, just like all other religions regardless what mass media make you believe. But all of them fall pretty damn hard when meeting reality of (heavily) flawed humans, who ride most of their lives much more on emotions rather than being rational. So we have folks like Mother Theresa refusing help to people with leprosis because suffering is good and brings you closer to christian God (kind of pointless for hindus), or due to refusing to convert to christianity. How can such a person be celebrated is beyond my understanding, even ignoring those millions of dollars that disappeared under her management, that is kind of tradition in nonprofits. I've seen personally horrible treatment by self-entitled people very deep in christianity, considering all others unworthy beings and treating them as such. Those tend to behave in very subpar manners while shroudinging themselves in righteousness that goes against the core principles of any religion, and rather stand as an insult to it. Or to put it in a different way, if existence would end according to christianity heaven would be pretty empty place, most people are failing 10 commandements pretty hard (since sins are sins and they stand through the times, no priest has any actual right or ability to manage those, so plenty of rituals are utterly pointless if you think about them a bit). Religions are weird, simple great core ideas consistently twisted into obscure made up rules and absolutely pointless power structures. Always go against personal responsibility, critical thinking, and are hopelessly beyond modern morals. Maybe enough for simpler minds but mental gymnastics that smart people have to constantly do to stay true believers while accepting modern science understanding is quite a burden, and most fail there

by b800h 4y ago

Broken_Hippo 4y ago

It doesn't really matter what you think the core precept of Christianity is. It is great if you practice differently. I know some people do try to be kind. As I said, "At least it isn't true across the board". It is very obvious that folks aren't unconditionally offering help to those in need, using the banner of Christianity to justify it. And to justify homophobia, racism, misogyny, and a slew of other things. And what I've seen very little of is other folks speaking out. I see folks protesting comprehensive sex ed and birth control, while these shelters (and others) get no pushback. Do better if you want views like this to change. Be loud and help folks.

b800h 4y ago
> Do better Bit presumptuous. The original point was about a desire for drug users to "atone" for their behaviour in order to get help. It's utterly unchristian, literally flies in the face of the core Christian value. There are a bunch of noisy people in the southern states of the US who don't understand why the Old Testament is included in the Bible. It's a huge problem, and it's showing up in this conversation.
- prox 4y ago
  The thing is that so much atrocities has been done under the banner of Christianity that it delutes the good people who seem honestly committed to the core value “love your neighbor” Often that tenet is being absolutely debased by making it “love your neighbor, except if he is gay, trans, woke, liberal, communist, black, fill in the blank” Jesus himself proclaimed “love god and love your neighbor” to be the core and heart of his teaching, yet instead you have people fighting over the stupidest things in the bible just to be “right”, creating tons of denominations that make no sense at all. If Jesus values are just, they should be universal values. And his core teaching does echo tenets of reciprocation.
  - LawTalkingGuy 4y ago
    > yet instead you have people fighting over the stupidest things in the bible just to be “right”, creating tons of denominations that make no sense at all. Isn't that what we want? People laying our their reasoning and their ideology on paper, and leaving a parent group whose actions they can't condone? This is the calling them out. Compare and contrast to ideologies and areas where people who published these opinions would be killed for their heresy. No doubt many/most of the sects are stupider than what they broke away from, but sometimes, critically, they are vastly superior. I'm not religious but for example I can recognize the value of Martin Luther's reformation.
    - prox 4y ago
      I see where you are coming from. I think the distinction is either whether to look at it from an ideological or core tennet perspective or a more political/ organizational perspective. So arguing from the second perspective the problem with the breakaway reformations we have seen is that they often tend to deal with the “true scotsman” fallacy, where they double down on rules and regulations in the bible just to be worthy and a “true” Christian, sometimes coupled with a “holier than thou” attitude. (Obviously generalizing centuries of history here) Instead of the movement to a more universal “love thy neighbor” seems a more fitting approach, if it’s truly universal as Christianity claims.
      - LawTalkingGuy 4y ago
        > the problem with the breakaway reformations we have seen is that they often tend to deal with the “true scotsman” fallacy, where they double down on rules and regulations in the bible just to be worthy and a “true” Christian ... Instead of the movement to a more universal “love thy neighbor” seems a more fitting approach It feels that's exactly what you did though. Pick a favored feature and declare that people not doing it predominantly that way are wrong. > if it’s truly universal as Christianity claims. Even if they believe that you should love the sinner I don't see where their traditions say they should lay down and let themselves be victimized because they can't regulate people they "love". > “true” Christian, sometimes coupled with a “holier than thou” attitude. (Obviously generalizing centuries of history here) Those centuries of history led to here, where in a country founded largely by Christians on Christian principles, you're allowed to say you don't think any of them are doing right. And you and I - total heathens, receive no threats, no hate.

saiya-jin 4y ago

I think both of you are right. Core concept of christianity is universal love, just like all other religions regardless what mass media make you believe. But all of them fall pretty damn hard when meeting reality of (heavily) flawed humans, who ride most of their lives much more on emotions rather than being rational. So we have folks like Mother Theresa refusing help to people with leprosis because suffering is good and brings you closer to christian God (kind of pointless for hindus), or due to refusing to convert to christianity. How can such a person be celebrated is beyond my understanding, even ignoring those millions of dollars that disappeared under her management, that is kind of tradition in nonprofits. I've seen personally horrible treatment by self-entitled people very deep in christianity, considering all others unworthy beings and treating them as such. Those tend to behave in very subpar manners while shroudinging themselves in righteousness that goes against the core principles of any religion, and rather stand as an insult to it. Or to put it in a different way, if existence would end according to christianity heaven would be pretty empty place, most people are failing 10 commandements pretty hard (since sins are sins and they stand through the times, no priest has any actual right or ability to manage those, so plenty of rituals are utterly pointless if you think about them a bit). Religions are weird, simple great core ideas consistently twisted into obscure made up rules and absolutely pointless power structures. Always go against personal responsibility, critical thinking, and are hopelessly beyond modern morals. Maybe enough for simpler minds but mental gymnastics that smart people have to constantly do to stay true believers while accepting modern science understanding is quite a burden, and most fail there