5 ms·

This is obviously not true - or at least, not true across the board. There might be some that don't do punishment. But... we have places like the Salvation Arm

This is obviously not true - or at least, not true across the board. There might be some that don't do punishment. But... we have places like the Salvation Army that would rather have folks die instead of giving a trans person shelter and help. There are abusive homeless shelters peppered across the US, some of which have forced church, forced drug classes, and forced work. Some of these will take away your possessions or turn away a man with children because the shelter that allows children has a strict "no man" policy. Right this very moment, people are passing laws to ban trans folks and take rights away from queer people in general. It doesn't really matter what you think the point is, it obviously either isn't shared or doesn't show in people's actions. There are plenty of examples of christians actively doing harm in real time.

b800h 4y ago
It really isn't "obviously untrue". I can't speak for the Salvation Army but they need to examine themselves if they aren't unconditionally offering help to those in need. I appreciate that I'm in danger of doing a "No True Scotsman" fallacy here, but my original point stands. This is evidence of a lack of the core precept of Christianity.
- Broken_Hippo 4y ago
  It doesn't really matter what you think the core precept of Christianity is. It is great if you practice differently. I know some people do try to be kind. As I said, "At least it isn't true across the board". It is very obvious that folks aren't unconditionally offering help to those in need, using the banner of Christianity to justify it. And to justify homophobia, racism, misogyny, and a slew of other things. And what I've seen very little of is other folks speaking out. I see folks protesting comprehensive sex ed and birth control, while these shelters (and others) get no pushback. Do better if you want views like this to change. Be loud and help folks.
  - b800h 4y ago
    > Do better Bit presumptuous. The original point was about a desire for drug users to "atone" for their behaviour in order to get help. It's utterly unchristian, literally flies in the face of the core Christian value. There are a bunch of noisy people in the southern states of the US who don't understand why the Old Testament is included in the Bible. It's a huge problem, and it's showing up in this conversation.
    - prox 4y ago
      The thing is that so much atrocities has been done under the banner of Christianity that it delutes the good people who seem honestly committed to the core value “love your neighbor” Often that tenet is being absolutely debased by making it “love your neighbor, except if he is gay, trans, woke, liberal, communist, black, fill in the blank” Jesus himself proclaimed “love god and love your neighbor” to be the core and heart of his teaching, yet instead you have people fighting over the stupidest things in the bible just to be “right”, creating tons of denominations that make no sense at all. If Jesus values are just, they should be universal values. And his core teaching does echo tenets of reciprocation.
      - LawTalkingGuy 4y ago
        > yet instead you have people fighting over the stupidest things in the bible just to be “right”, creating tons of denominations that make no sense at all. Isn't that what we want? People laying our their reasoning and their ideology on paper, and leaving a parent group whose actions they can't condone? This is the calling them out. Compare and contrast to ideologies and areas where people who published these opinions would be killed for their heresy. No doubt many/most of the sects are stupider than what they broke away from, but sometimes, critically, they are vastly superior. I'm not religious but for example I can recognize the value of Martin Luther's reformation.
        prox 4y ago
        I see where you are coming from. I think the distinction is either whether to look at it from an ideological or core tennet perspective or a more political/ organizational perspective. So arguing from the second perspective the problem with the breakaway reformations we have seen is that they often tend to deal with the “true scotsman” fallacy, where they double down on rules and regulations in the bible just to be worthy and a “true” Christian, sometimes coupled with a “holier than thou” attitude. (Obviously generalizing centuries of history here) Instead of the movement to a more universal “love thy neighbor” seems a more fitting approach, if it’s truly universal as Christianity claims.
- saiya-jin 4y ago
  I think both of you are right. Core concept of christianity is universal love, just like all other religions regardless what mass media make you believe. But all of them fall pretty damn hard when meeting reality of (heavily) flawed humans, who ride most of their lives much more on emotions rather than being rational. So we have folks like Mother Theresa refusing help to people with leprosis because suffering is good and brings you closer to christian God (kind of pointless for hindus), or due to refusing to convert to christianity. How can such a person be celebrated is beyond my understanding, even ignoring those millions of dollars that disappeared under her management, that is kind of tradition in nonprofits. I've seen personally horrible treatment by self-entitled people very deep in christianity, considering all others unworthy beings and treating them as such. Those tend to behave in very subpar manners while shroudinging themselves in righteousness that goes against the core principles of any religion, and rather stand as an insult to it. Or to put it in a different way, if existence would end according to christianity heaven would be pretty empty place, most people are failing 10 commandements pretty hard (since sins are sins and they stand through the times, no priest has any actual right or ability to manage those, so plenty of rituals are utterly pointless if you think about them a bit). Religions are weird, simple great core ideas consistently twisted into obscure made up rules and absolutely pointless power structures. Always go against personal responsibility, critical thinking, and are hopelessly beyond modern morals. Maybe enough for simpler minds but mental gymnastics that smart people have to constantly do to stay true believers while accepting modern science understanding is quite a burden, and most fail there
swexbe 4y ago
Are non-religious homeless shelters any better/worse? Obiously not all christians are saints and not everyone who calls himself a christian follows christ.
- seszett 4y ago
  > Are non-religious homeless shelters any better/worse? Well, I have worked with organisations here that originated from the communist party (in a Western country without a "complicated" history with communism) and they just don't discriminate at all. Not even against people who might be "not poor enough" to actually need them. It seems to me quite better indeed than Christians denying help to trans or gay persons.
  - b800h 4y ago
    Ah, well each new brand of communism comes with its own group of people who are more equal than others. It seems to always turn into some sort of horror story eventually, once they get free rein to implement their utopia. I would view that with a strong dose of skepticism.
- Broken_Hippo 4y ago
  Most homeless shelters that I'm familiar with are in the US, and most of those are Christian. I really couldn't tell you. I stopped hearing so much about them when I moved to Northern Europe. I don't know if it is a language barrier, the culture, or if they are better. I'm not going to distinguish between the folks that "follow christ" and who does not - many are going to claim it and I'm not really willing to engage some of these folks to see if they are "true" or not. Living in the US, there wasn't a big outcry against folks discriminating. You were told to just be normal. Don't be gay. (I'm bisexual). In the 90s and before, a lot of folks used it to justify outright racism. And there isn't enough outcry now or then. Granted, this isn't just Christianity. But I'm not going to give Christianity a break because they aren't special when folks are glossing over the harms.
covig 4y ago
[flagged]
LawTalkingGuy 4y ago
> we have places like the Salvation Army that would rather have folks die instead of giving a trans person shelter Honest translation: they told a man that there was plenty of space for men in the men's shelter, but that they could not enter the women's shelter. And why would that be? https://reduxx.info/trans-serial-killer-who-targeted-women-was-granted-entry-to-womens-shelter-used-photos-of-victim-on-facebook/ https://reduxx.info/trans-serial-killer-who-targeted-women-w... https://www.womenarehuman.com/male-transgender-boasts-of-harassing-women-in-crisis-shelter/ https://www.womenarehuman.com/male-transgender-boasts-of-har... https://www.womenarehuman.com/male-trans-pedophilia-rape-history-sexually-attacks-women-at-homeless-shelter-christopher-hambrook/ https://www.womenarehuman.com/male-trans-pedophilia-rape-his... > passing laws to ban trans folks Name one. One single such law. The proposed laws are to return to enforcing sex-based policies. Males weren't welcome in female washrooms, sports, shelters, or prisons before but were forced in by the intentional conflation of identity with physicality. If you mean bills enforcing no drugging or surgery of minors, well we're being assured that doesn't happen so the laws obviously don't matter. > and take rights away from queer people in general Again, name one. What right? There's a lot of conflation going on, claiming parents want to ban drag shows when they want to ban all sexual shows - burlesque as well - in public places where children might go. Nobody is coming for the drag queens, etc. But, thank you for being clear that you're talking about TQ+ laws and rights, instead of tying them to LGB sex-based rights as if the rainbow is monolithic in politics. Lesbians face street violence for saying that lesbianism is female and demanding the right to male-free spaces.
- nonict 4y ago
  [flagged]

b800h 4y ago

It really isn't "obviously untrue". I can't speak for the Salvation Army but they need to examine themselves if they aren't unconditionally offering help to those in need. I appreciate that I'm in danger of doing a "No True Scotsman" fallacy here, but my original point stands. This is evidence of a lack of the core precept of Christianity.

Broken_Hippo 4y ago
It doesn't really matter what you think the core precept of Christianity is. It is great if you practice differently. I know some people do try to be kind. As I said, "At least it isn't true across the board". It is very obvious that folks aren't unconditionally offering help to those in need, using the banner of Christianity to justify it. And to justify homophobia, racism, misogyny, and a slew of other things. And what I've seen very little of is other folks speaking out. I see folks protesting comprehensive sex ed and birth control, while these shelters (and others) get no pushback. Do better if you want views like this to change. Be loud and help folks.
- b800h 4y ago
  > Do better Bit presumptuous. The original point was about a desire for drug users to "atone" for their behaviour in order to get help. It's utterly unchristian, literally flies in the face of the core Christian value. There are a bunch of noisy people in the southern states of the US who don't understand why the Old Testament is included in the Bible. It's a huge problem, and it's showing up in this conversation.
  - prox 4y ago
    The thing is that so much atrocities has been done under the banner of Christianity that it delutes the good people who seem honestly committed to the core value “love your neighbor” Often that tenet is being absolutely debased by making it “love your neighbor, except if he is gay, trans, woke, liberal, communist, black, fill in the blank” Jesus himself proclaimed “love god and love your neighbor” to be the core and heart of his teaching, yet instead you have people fighting over the stupidest things in the bible just to be “right”, creating tons of denominations that make no sense at all. If Jesus values are just, they should be universal values. And his core teaching does echo tenets of reciprocation.
    - LawTalkingGuy 4y ago
      > yet instead you have people fighting over the stupidest things in the bible just to be “right”, creating tons of denominations that make no sense at all. Isn't that what we want? People laying our their reasoning and their ideology on paper, and leaving a parent group whose actions they can't condone? This is the calling them out. Compare and contrast to ideologies and areas where people who published these opinions would be killed for their heresy. No doubt many/most of the sects are stupider than what they broke away from, but sometimes, critically, they are vastly superior. I'm not religious but for example I can recognize the value of Martin Luther's reformation.
      - prox 4y ago
        I see where you are coming from. I think the distinction is either whether to look at it from an ideological or core tennet perspective or a more political/ organizational perspective. So arguing from the second perspective the problem with the breakaway reformations we have seen is that they often tend to deal with the “true scotsman” fallacy, where they double down on rules and regulations in the bible just to be worthy and a “true” Christian, sometimes coupled with a “holier than thou” attitude. (Obviously generalizing centuries of history here) Instead of the movement to a more universal “love thy neighbor” seems a more fitting approach, if it’s truly universal as Christianity claims.
saiya-jin 4y ago
I think both of you are right. Core concept of christianity is universal love, just like all other religions regardless what mass media make you believe. But all of them fall pretty damn hard when meeting reality of (heavily) flawed humans, who ride most of their lives much more on emotions rather than being rational. So we have folks like Mother Theresa refusing help to people with leprosis because suffering is good and brings you closer to christian God (kind of pointless for hindus), or due to refusing to convert to christianity. How can such a person be celebrated is beyond my understanding, even ignoring those millions of dollars that disappeared under her management, that is kind of tradition in nonprofits. I've seen personally horrible treatment by self-entitled people very deep in christianity, considering all others unworthy beings and treating them as such. Those tend to behave in very subpar manners while shroudinging themselves in righteousness that goes against the core principles of any religion, and rather stand as an insult to it. Or to put it in a different way, if existence would end according to christianity heaven would be pretty empty place, most people are failing 10 commandements pretty hard (since sins are sins and they stand through the times, no priest has any actual right or ability to manage those, so plenty of rituals are utterly pointless if you think about them a bit). Religions are weird, simple great core ideas consistently twisted into obscure made up rules and absolutely pointless power structures. Always go against personal responsibility, critical thinking, and are hopelessly beyond modern morals. Maybe enough for simpler minds but mental gymnastics that smart people have to constantly do to stay true believers while accepting modern science understanding is quite a burden, and most fail there

swexbe 4y ago

Are non-religious homeless shelters any better/worse? Obiously not all christians are saints and not everyone who calls himself a christian follows christ.

seszett 4y ago
> Are non-religious homeless shelters any better/worse? Well, I have worked with organisations here that originated from the communist party (in a Western country without a "complicated" history with communism) and they just don't discriminate at all. Not even against people who might be "not poor enough" to actually need them. It seems to me quite better indeed than Christians denying help to trans or gay persons.
- b800h 4y ago
  Ah, well each new brand of communism comes with its own group of people who are more equal than others. It seems to always turn into some sort of horror story eventually, once they get free rein to implement their utopia. I would view that with a strong dose of skepticism.
Broken_Hippo 4y ago
Most homeless shelters that I'm familiar with are in the US, and most of those are Christian. I really couldn't tell you. I stopped hearing so much about them when I moved to Northern Europe. I don't know if it is a language barrier, the culture, or if they are better. I'm not going to distinguish between the folks that "follow christ" and who does not - many are going to claim it and I'm not really willing to engage some of these folks to see if they are "true" or not. Living in the US, there wasn't a big outcry against folks discriminating. You were told to just be normal. Don't be gay. (I'm bisexual). In the 90s and before, a lot of folks used it to justify outright racism. And there isn't enough outcry now or then. Granted, this isn't just Christianity. But I'm not going to give Christianity a break because they aren't special when folks are glossing over the harms.

covig 4y ago

[flagged]

LawTalkingGuy 4y ago

> we have places like the Salvation Army that would rather have folks die instead of giving a trans person shelter Honest translation: they told a man that there was plenty of space for men in the men's shelter, but that they could not enter the women's shelter. And why would that be? https://reduxx.info/trans-serial-killer-who-targeted-women-was-granted-entry-to-womens-shelter-used-photos-of-victim-on-facebook/ https://reduxx.info/trans-serial-killer-who-targeted-women-w... https://www.womenarehuman.com/male-transgender-boasts-of-harassing-women-in-crisis-shelter/ https://www.womenarehuman.com/male-transgender-boasts-of-har... https://www.womenarehuman.com/male-trans-pedophilia-rape-history-sexually-attacks-women-at-homeless-shelter-christopher-hambrook/ https://www.womenarehuman.com/male-trans-pedophilia-rape-his... > passing laws to ban trans folks Name one. One single such law. The proposed laws are to return to enforcing sex-based policies. Males weren't welcome in female washrooms, sports, shelters, or prisons before but were forced in by the intentional conflation of identity with physicality. If you mean bills enforcing no drugging or surgery of minors, well we're being assured that doesn't happen so the laws obviously don't matter. > and take rights away from queer people in general Again, name one. What right? There's a lot of conflation going on, claiming parents want to ban drag shows when they want to ban all sexual shows - burlesque as well - in public places where children might go. Nobody is coming for the drag queens, etc. But, thank you for being clear that you're talking about TQ+ laws and rights, instead of tying them to LGB sex-based rights as if the rainbow is monolithic in politics. Lesbians face street violence for saying that lesbianism is female and demanding the right to male-free spaces.

nonict 4y ago
[flagged]