4 ms·

This is literally the policy that got us here and has failed us every single step of the way. Doing more of it is how things keep getting worse. The correct an

This is literally the policy that got us here and has failed us every single step of the way. Doing more of it is how things keep getting worse. The correct answer is to decriminalize everything and improve public health programs like Portugal did 20+ years ago. They saw extremely good outcomes. [1] [1] https://www.theguardian.com/news/2017/dec/05/portugals-radical-drugs-policy-is-working-why-hasnt-the-world-copied-it https://www.theguardian.com/news/2017/dec/05/portugals-radic...

ReptileMan 4y ago
Singapore offers another approach that seems to work ok. Probably the real lesson is that half assed measures don't work. And you have to go all the way. No matter the direction.
- triyambakam 4y ago
  Singapore's approach as in the death penalty?
  - ReptileMan 4y ago
    Makes it moderately hard to be a repeat offender. Edit: Joke aside - i am fine with marijuana, and some forms of cocaine being kinda ok-ish, but a death sentence for every person that distributes fentanyl and carfentanil won't extract too much tears from me. Some vices should be entertained - but there should be hard limits somewhere.
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
swalling 4y ago
How many years did Portugal’s approach take to work? Oregon decriminalized personal possession of basically all of these drugs in 2021. As of today, a large swathe of downtown Portland is basically one highly dangerous open air drug market. It’s going to end up like the Tenderloin and Civic Center in SF. The cannabis tax money flooding into addiction treatment businesses seems to be not making a dent. Between lower quality of life and some of the highest tax burdens in the US, Oregon is decreasing in population every year now.
- arcticbull 4y ago
  > Portugal’s policy rests on three pillars: one, that there’s no such thing as a soft or hard drug, only healthy and unhealthy relationships with drugs; two, that an individual’s unhealthy relationship with drugs often conceals frayed relationships with loved ones, with the world around them, and with themselves; and three, that the eradication of all drugs is an impossible goal. > “The national policy is to treat each individual differently,” Goulão told me. “The secret is for us to be present.” If you want to learn more the article I linked is very good. It goes into great detail and I think covers how long it took to work. But the reality is it's not just enough to decriminalize, you also have to provide appropriate care. Oregon didn't do what Portugal did - they only did part of it.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - LawTalkingGuy 4y ago
    Portugal didn't decriminalize the way Vancouver decriminalized drugs or SF decriminalized shoplifting. They merely stopped giving criminal records to people who chose and completed rehab, but they still certainly use the police to apprehend any public drug user.
    - arcticbull 4y ago
      No, they decriminalized. They didn't legalize. It's the subtitle of the article I linked, and if you google for five seconds, you'll see that's what everyone else calls it too. You're welcome to call it whatever you want I guess.
      - LawTalkingGuy 4y ago
        And yet the architect of the Portuguese anti-drug response explains how the courts and police are used to enforce this "decriminalized" system. Vancouver has taken away the police's ability to confiscate a drug that has just killed someone, or to arrest the dealer. This is directly opposite of what Portugal does, dishonestly borrowing the words without their original meaning or critically the other 90% of the Portuguese response like actual rehab in a drug-free society.
karp773 4y ago
Singapore and Japan have even better outcomes.
- arcticbull 4y ago
  Do you have a source? Or are you speculating? There's a lot to like about those places, but their approach is antithetical to at least the way the US and Canada likes to represent themselves. Decriminalization seems far more in line with western ideology. Freedom and personal responsibility combined with liberty. What's not to like? Especially since it works. Shall we solve the stuck gum under park benches with caning too? Smacking people with sticks does solve problems, but I'm not sure that's the kind of society I want to advocate for. Despite very much enjoying my time in Singapore. The benevolent authoritarianism model of Singapore is unique and interesting - and attempts to replicate it elsewhere have failed. Including a famous attempt in China where Deng Xiaoping and Lee Kwan Yew gave it a real college try in the early 90s. Worth reading about. [1] [1] https://www.thinkchina.sg/construction-singapore-model-mainland-china https://www.thinkchina.sg/construction-singapore-model-mainl...
- JumpCrisscross 4y ago
  > Singapore and Japan have even better outcomes Japan's prohibitionist approach has left it with a meth problem we can't measure because of said prohibitionism [1]. [1] https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/japan-place-with-strangest-drug-debate-in-world/#ftnt7 https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/japan-place-with-strangest-...
jacooper 4y ago
Yeah sure, that's why countries which take a hard stance with actual enforcement like the UAE have no open drug markets. The problem is enforcement, as long as there are open drug markets, then the issue isnt the laws its the joke of a police that pretends to do anything, or rather idiots trying to sympathies with drug users and dealers keeping the police from doing their work.
- arcticbull 4y ago
  And yet, that's the approach that has completely failed. I suggest you allow data to drive the discussion instead of silly failed moralizations. As a peer comment pointed out, Japan's drug policy is the most strict in the developed world - and it has a massive under-reported meth problem. I suspect the Emirates is similar and lower headline numbers come from lack of reporting - not lack of issues. Do you have some evidence to suggest your approach works? To my knowledge there really isn't any. Maybe it's time to start sympathizing with the drug users if you want to get rid of shady dealers and narcos. We've tried it your way. It sucks.
  - jacooper 4y ago
    Not seeing addicts and semi-zombies on the streets is enough.
    - arcticbull 4y ago
      Ah pretending. Got it. It does tend to be easier to live in a world of one's own imagination than to solve the real, hard problems we face. You know where else doesn't have those things? Portugal.
      - jacooper 4y ago
        Hmmm, and is it a normal part of an average person life to ever have taken drugs or got addicted? If so that still counts as a failure, nobody should be allowed to ever take these drugs in their lifetime.
blindriver 4y ago
Your understanding is wrong. In Portugal you are forced to go into addiction therapy or go to jail. You're not allowed to just continue to take drugs on the streets like in SF. We shouldn't criminalize addiction but we certainly shouldn't let it proliferate. Forced drug rehab is an essential part of the equation. Without forced rehab, you get open air drug markets like SF which is making things worse, not better. Today a drug addicted woman gave birth to a baby on the street in SF. It's all over Twitter. It's worse than a 3rd world country in this so-called utopia of progressive freedom. It's sick and disgusting.
- arcticbull 4y ago
  > Your understanding is wrong. In Portugal you are forced to go into addiction therapy or go to jail. You're not allowed to just continue to take drugs on the streets like in SF. So my understanding is correct then. I'm familiar with what I'm advocating.
  - blindriver 4y ago
    Then you knowingly left out the most important part of the whole program. Portugal doesn't let people remain addicted, the way all the progressive programs are doing like in SF, Portland, etc. Simply legalizing drugs is evil, it's benefiting the drug dealers and so-called harm-reduction advocates that benefit financially from letting addicts continue to live in slavery. We need forced rehabilitation as part of the equation, otherwise it doesn't work at all. I don't believe addicts should be criminalized, but locking them up in jail is the second best solution, to what we have right now, which is the worst of any scenario. It's a complete failure and downright evil what is going on right now in SF.
    - arcticbull 4y ago
      Hardly, I linked to an article which covers all of that. I also didn't say legalize, I said decriminalize. These are two different concepts. Legalize weed and psychedelics, sure. Decriminalize hard drugs. And improve public health programs, like I said, including mandatory rehab (which I left out - not for any particular reason - but support for addicts). > It's a complete failure and downright evil what is going on right now in SF. I agree completely. I don't think we disagree on much, tbh.

ReptileMan 4y ago

Singapore offers another approach that seems to work ok. Probably the real lesson is that half assed measures don't work. And you have to go all the way. No matter the direction.

triyambakam 4y ago
Singapore's approach as in the death penalty?
- ReptileMan 4y ago
  Makes it moderately hard to be a repeat offender. Edit: Joke aside - i am fine with marijuana, and some forms of cocaine being kinda ok-ish, but a death sentence for every person that distributes fentanyl and carfentanil won't extract too much tears from me. Some vices should be entertained - but there should be hard limits somewhere.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]

swalling 4y ago

How many years did Portugal’s approach take to work? Oregon decriminalized personal possession of basically all of these drugs in 2021. As of today, a large swathe of downtown Portland is basically one highly dangerous open air drug market. It’s going to end up like the Tenderloin and Civic Center in SF. The cannabis tax money flooding into addiction treatment businesses seems to be not making a dent. Between lower quality of life and some of the highest tax burdens in the US, Oregon is decreasing in population every year now.

arcticbull 4y ago
> Portugal’s policy rests on three pillars: one, that there’s no such thing as a soft or hard drug, only healthy and unhealthy relationships with drugs; two, that an individual’s unhealthy relationship with drugs often conceals frayed relationships with loved ones, with the world around them, and with themselves; and three, that the eradication of all drugs is an impossible goal. > “The national policy is to treat each individual differently,” Goulão told me. “The secret is for us to be present.” If you want to learn more the article I linked is very good. It goes into great detail and I think covers how long it took to work. But the reality is it's not just enough to decriminalize, you also have to provide appropriate care. Oregon didn't do what Portugal did - they only did part of it.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- LawTalkingGuy 4y ago
  Portugal didn't decriminalize the way Vancouver decriminalized drugs or SF decriminalized shoplifting. They merely stopped giving criminal records to people who chose and completed rehab, but they still certainly use the police to apprehend any public drug user.
  - arcticbull 4y ago
    No, they decriminalized. They didn't legalize. It's the subtitle of the article I linked, and if you google for five seconds, you'll see that's what everyone else calls it too. You're welcome to call it whatever you want I guess.
    - LawTalkingGuy 4y ago
      And yet the architect of the Portuguese anti-drug response explains how the courts and police are used to enforce this "decriminalized" system. Vancouver has taken away the police's ability to confiscate a drug that has just killed someone, or to arrest the dealer. This is directly opposite of what Portugal does, dishonestly borrowing the words without their original meaning or critically the other 90% of the Portuguese response like actual rehab in a drug-free society.

karp773 4y ago

Singapore and Japan have even better outcomes.

arcticbull 4y ago
Do you have a source? Or are you speculating? There's a lot to like about those places, but their approach is antithetical to at least the way the US and Canada likes to represent themselves. Decriminalization seems far more in line with western ideology. Freedom and personal responsibility combined with liberty. What's not to like? Especially since it works. Shall we solve the stuck gum under park benches with caning too? Smacking people with sticks does solve problems, but I'm not sure that's the kind of society I want to advocate for. Despite very much enjoying my time in Singapore. The benevolent authoritarianism model of Singapore is unique and interesting - and attempts to replicate it elsewhere have failed. Including a famous attempt in China where Deng Xiaoping and Lee Kwan Yew gave it a real college try in the early 90s. Worth reading about. [1] [1] https://www.thinkchina.sg/construction-singapore-model-mainland-china https://www.thinkchina.sg/construction-singapore-model-mainl...
JumpCrisscross 4y ago
> Singapore and Japan have even better outcomes Japan's prohibitionist approach has left it with a meth problem we can't measure because of said prohibitionism [1]. [1] https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/japan-place-with-strangest-drug-debate-in-world/#ftnt7 https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/japan-place-with-strangest-...

jacooper 4y ago

Yeah sure, that's why countries which take a hard stance with actual enforcement like the UAE have no open drug markets. The problem is enforcement, as long as there are open drug markets, then the issue isnt the laws its the joke of a police that pretends to do anything, or rather idiots trying to sympathies with drug users and dealers keeping the police from doing their work.

arcticbull 4y ago
And yet, that's the approach that has completely failed. I suggest you allow data to drive the discussion instead of silly failed moralizations. As a peer comment pointed out, Japan's drug policy is the most strict in the developed world - and it has a massive under-reported meth problem. I suspect the Emirates is similar and lower headline numbers come from lack of reporting - not lack of issues. Do you have some evidence to suggest your approach works? To my knowledge there really isn't any. Maybe it's time to start sympathizing with the drug users if you want to get rid of shady dealers and narcos. We've tried it your way. It sucks.
- jacooper 4y ago
  Not seeing addicts and semi-zombies on the streets is enough.
  - arcticbull 4y ago
    Ah pretending. Got it. It does tend to be easier to live in a world of one's own imagination than to solve the real, hard problems we face. You know where else doesn't have those things? Portugal.
    - jacooper 4y ago
      Hmmm, and is it a normal part of an average person life to ever have taken drugs or got addicted? If so that still counts as a failure, nobody should be allowed to ever take these drugs in their lifetime.

blindriver 4y ago

Your understanding is wrong. In Portugal you are forced to go into addiction therapy or go to jail. You're not allowed to just continue to take drugs on the streets like in SF. We shouldn't criminalize addiction but we certainly shouldn't let it proliferate. Forced drug rehab is an essential part of the equation. Without forced rehab, you get open air drug markets like SF which is making things worse, not better. Today a drug addicted woman gave birth to a baby on the street in SF. It's all over Twitter. It's worse than a 3rd world country in this so-called utopia of progressive freedom. It's sick and disgusting.

arcticbull 4y ago
> Your understanding is wrong. In Portugal you are forced to go into addiction therapy or go to jail. You're not allowed to just continue to take drugs on the streets like in SF. So my understanding is correct then. I'm familiar with what I'm advocating.
- blindriver 4y ago
  Then you knowingly left out the most important part of the whole program. Portugal doesn't let people remain addicted, the way all the progressive programs are doing like in SF, Portland, etc. Simply legalizing drugs is evil, it's benefiting the drug dealers and so-called harm-reduction advocates that benefit financially from letting addicts continue to live in slavery. We need forced rehabilitation as part of the equation, otherwise it doesn't work at all. I don't believe addicts should be criminalized, but locking them up in jail is the second best solution, to what we have right now, which is the worst of any scenario. It's a complete failure and downright evil what is going on right now in SF.
  - arcticbull 4y ago
    Hardly, I linked to an article which covers all of that. I also didn't say legalize, I said decriminalize. These are two different concepts. Legalize weed and psychedelics, sure. Decriminalize hard drugs. And improve public health programs, like I said, including mandatory rehab (which I left out - not for any particular reason - but support for addicts). > It's a complete failure and downright evil what is going on right now in SF. I agree completely. I don't think we disagree on much, tbh.