5 ms·

Ask News.YC: Were logical people born logical?

9 points by palish 18y ago

Short and sweet. Your thoughts, please.

nazgulnarsil 18y ago
anyone can become rational. it takes only the willingness to throw out any notion that is proven false, no matter how much you held that notion dear. with this one parameter you will arrive at successively more accurate approximations of reality.
SwellJoe 18y ago
Yes.
- palish 18y ago
  That was my conclusion as well. And unfortunately, it is a somewhat depressing conclusion. It means that not everyone is able to rise to the level of Mozart or Newton or Michelangelo (or Carmack, to use a more modern example). Certain problems are simply beyond the capabilities of certain people. I honestly don't care whether this topic rises to the front page... I'd just like to talk about this with others. Do you have some time to chat here?
  - TobiasCassell 18y ago
    Malcom Gladwell has a new book coming out in a couple of weeks called "Outliers".. He delves into all of this, I'm half way through it and I cant put it down. He has so much proof! Proof of all of the contributing factors that go into the exceptional accomplishments of certain extraordinary people. People like Bill Gates and Bill Joy. It's a little mean of me to mention the book as I think it gets released on the 18th, until I saw your post I resisted mentioning it. The only answer I have for you is probably not what you are looking for- there is a Buddhist expression called "mu". It means you have to un-ask the question before we can proceed, your question is like saying "are you still beating your wife?" Of course, either way one answers is incorrect- if you say "no" it could mean you used to beat your wife, and if yes thats quite bad as well. The correct answer can only be mu. So, in essence, there are too many factors involved for a yes or no . Get the book and then email me if you would like, I'd love to chat about it, its fantastic!
    - unalone 18y ago
      Where did you GET Outliers, perchance, if it's not out yet?
      - TobiasCassell 18y ago
        I have an advanced copy. My father sent it to me, pops doesn't care for nonfiction and he knew I'd enjoy it. He used to own a bookstore so he still gets the gallys(spelling?). I'm almost done with it Unalone, email me and I'll put it in the post for you.
    - Alex3917 18y ago
      Now I'm really jealous. I've been waiting for that book to come out for months.
      - TobiasCassell 18y ago
        I didn't see this here, I'll send the book out to whomever emails me first.
    - palish 18y ago
      Sure, what's your e-mail? Or just e-mail me at shawnpresser@gmail.com.
      - TobiasCassell 18y ago
        Got it.
        palish 18y ago
        Hmm, I didn't actually get an email from you. Try again? Also, keep in mind that HN readers won't be able to see the email address that you put in your profile... you have to explicitly put it in your "about" section.
        18y ago
daveambrose 18y ago
Interesting question. Short answer: No. Long answer: Education.
- shawndrost 18y ago
  I noticed myself learning logical rigor as I learned to program. My hatred of bugs classically conditioned me to think through things in a way I wasn't accustomed to. However, as with most yes/no questions, the correct answer is is "sorta".
  - palish 18y ago
    Please, expand on that.
    - shawndrost 18y ago
      Once, after a few months of learning to program, my bike started falling out of gear going up hills. I knew nothing about bikes and so I looked at it for a while and then got frustrated. Then I looked at the pedals and thought, what happens when I push these? And if this chain is here, how does the wheel move? And what else can affect the wheel? And how does this change if the chain is on this gear wheel? Then I realized, hey, I'm debugging my bike. I was just helping someone learn to program yesterday, and I noticed her doing something that I remember doing as well. She was writing code that she didn't understand, without even understanding that she didn't understand it. Then, when it blew up, she was irritated in two ways: once because she had no idea it was coming, and again because she had no idea how to fix it. I rarely write code I don't understand now, but when I do, I'm damn well certain that I don't understand it, and it makes me nervous as hell. One day she's going to be me, because she hates what she sees every time she javac's now.
- DavidSJ 18y ago
  That was a pretty short long answer.
DanielBMarkham 18y ago
I disagree with the premise: people are not logical. There are a lot of people with great analytical skills, but even those people consistently act illogically. It comes with the wetware.
- palish 18y ago
  Certainly. Rumor has it that Einstein had at least one or two mistresses that he would visit from time to time. Those visits probably did nothing to improve his personal life, or benefit him in any way except emotionally (and even then, only in the short term; his jaunts probably had long-term emotional consequences). Therefore, those actions were probably illogical. However, setting that aside for one moment... Imagine someone who most people would classify as "developmentally disabled". (I don't like over-general labels, but it is a relatively specific one in this case.) Now, the million-dollar question is: would it ever be possible for that person to solve a problem of the magnitude Einstein has solved? It seems like the answer is no.
mstefff 18y ago
Perhaps born with the genes but developed over time with education, etc.
ivanstojic 18y ago
In short: no. I have seen tens of examples where people of incredible logical/analytical heritage sink to the bottom of the barrel, as well as those that rise to the top from no discernible "good" set of genes. There is more, I believe, than being born in making a person understand and function on a logical level. It requires a whole set of correct external stimuli, as well as a certain drive. For me, I can clearly define two key points in my life: one that got me started in the right logical way, and one that directed me into computers specifically. As for the drive, it's also very much a function of environment, because I have seen my own motivation and desire tide and ebb depending on various external inputs. In conclusion, I would say that there is potential in a majority of us to achieve amazing things, yet this potential requires specific grooming to blossom.
sarvesh 18y ago
Human beings don't always act rationally or irrationally due to emotions. So calling some as logical is illogical, assuming that you meant someone is completely logical when you say 'born logical'. Where and how you grow up plays a big role in how logical you are.
abless 18y ago
What's a logical person?
giardini 18y ago
Of course not! They were all babbling fools as infants.
dkobryn 18y ago
Consider the following analogy. We all have bodies, but few become athletes. We all have minds, but few become thinkers. I think this is a matter of choice influenced by ones predisposition and experiences. Inevitably we choose to specialize in something and that specialization strengthens us in some ways at the cost of weakening us in other ways. -cheers
philonous 18y ago
People were born stupid. Education (and in small part experience) is necessary to the development of the rational faculties.
mccon104 18y ago
Yes. Or at least they have the propensity to become more so than others. My evidence is very very subjective... based on watching children (ages 2-5) you see some have a natural inclination towards order and logic. They love legos, lining up their action figures/matchbox cars, coloring in the lines and when they color they only use colors that make sense (i.e. they won't color a tree blue). While other kids love drawing/painting, giving their parents plays/shows, and creating stories that don't make any sense. They enjoy the chaos of turning little red riding hood into a who-done-it with Optimus Prime and Mario helping find gold on mars.

9 points by palish 18y ago

Short and sweet. Your thoughts, please.

anyone can become rational. it takes only the willingness to throw out any notion that is proven false, no matter how much you held that notion dear. with this one parameter you will arrive at successively more accurate approximations of reality.

SwellJoe 18y ago

Yes.

palish 18y ago
That was my conclusion as well. And unfortunately, it is a somewhat depressing conclusion. It means that not everyone is able to rise to the level of Mozart or Newton or Michelangelo (or Carmack, to use a more modern example). Certain problems are simply beyond the capabilities of certain people. I honestly don't care whether this topic rises to the front page... I'd just like to talk about this with others. Do you have some time to chat here?
- TobiasCassell 18y ago
  Malcom Gladwell has a new book coming out in a couple of weeks called "Outliers".. He delves into all of this, I'm half way through it and I cant put it down. He has so much proof! Proof of all of the contributing factors that go into the exceptional accomplishments of certain extraordinary people. People like Bill Gates and Bill Joy. It's a little mean of me to mention the book as I think it gets released on the 18th, until I saw your post I resisted mentioning it. The only answer I have for you is probably not what you are looking for- there is a Buddhist expression called "mu". It means you have to un-ask the question before we can proceed, your question is like saying "are you still beating your wife?" Of course, either way one answers is incorrect- if you say "no" it could mean you used to beat your wife, and if yes thats quite bad as well. The correct answer can only be mu. So, in essence, there are too many factors involved for a yes or no . Get the book and then email me if you would like, I'd love to chat about it, its fantastic!
  - unalone 18y ago
    Where did you GET Outliers, perchance, if it's not out yet?
    - TobiasCassell 18y ago
      I have an advanced copy. My father sent it to me, pops doesn't care for nonfiction and he knew I'd enjoy it. He used to own a bookstore so he still gets the gallys(spelling?). I'm almost done with it Unalone, email me and I'll put it in the post for you.
  - Alex3917 18y ago
    Now I'm really jealous. I've been waiting for that book to come out for months.
    - TobiasCassell 18y ago
      I didn't see this here, I'll send the book out to whomever emails me first.
  - palish 18y ago
    Sure, what's your e-mail? Or just e-mail me at shawnpresser@gmail.com.
    - TobiasCassell 18y ago
      Got it.
      - palish 18y ago
        Hmm, I didn't actually get an email from you. Try again? Also, keep in mind that HN readers won't be able to see the email address that you put in your profile... you have to explicitly put it in your "about" section.
        18y ago

daveambrose 18y ago

Interesting question. Short answer: No. Long answer: Education.

shawndrost 18y ago
I noticed myself learning logical rigor as I learned to program. My hatred of bugs classically conditioned me to think through things in a way I wasn't accustomed to. However, as with most yes/no questions, the correct answer is is "sorta".
- palish 18y ago
  Please, expand on that.
  - shawndrost 18y ago
    Once, after a few months of learning to program, my bike started falling out of gear going up hills. I knew nothing about bikes and so I looked at it for a while and then got frustrated. Then I looked at the pedals and thought, what happens when I push these? And if this chain is here, how does the wheel move? And what else can affect the wheel? And how does this change if the chain is on this gear wheel? Then I realized, hey, I'm debugging my bike. I was just helping someone learn to program yesterday, and I noticed her doing something that I remember doing as well. She was writing code that she didn't understand, without even understanding that she didn't understand it. Then, when it blew up, she was irritated in two ways: once because she had no idea it was coming, and again because she had no idea how to fix it. I rarely write code I don't understand now, but when I do, I'm damn well certain that I don't understand it, and it makes me nervous as hell. One day she's going to be me, because she hates what she sees every time she javac's now.
DavidSJ 18y ago
That was a pretty short long answer.

DanielBMarkham 18y ago

I disagree with the premise: people are not logical. There are a lot of people with great analytical skills, but even those people consistently act illogically. It comes with the wetware.

palish 18y ago
Certainly. Rumor has it that Einstein had at least one or two mistresses that he would visit from time to time. Those visits probably did nothing to improve his personal life, or benefit him in any way except emotionally (and even then, only in the short term; his jaunts probably had long-term emotional consequences). Therefore, those actions were probably illogical. However, setting that aside for one moment... Imagine someone who most people would classify as "developmentally disabled". (I don't like over-general labels, but it is a relatively specific one in this case.) Now, the million-dollar question is: would it ever be possible for that person to solve a problem of the magnitude Einstein has solved? It seems like the answer is no.

mstefff 18y ago

Perhaps born with the genes but developed over time with education, etc.

ivanstojic 18y ago

In short: no. I have seen tens of examples where people of incredible logical/analytical heritage sink to the bottom of the barrel, as well as those that rise to the top from no discernible "good" set of genes. There is more, I believe, than being born in making a person understand and function on a logical level. It requires a whole set of correct external stimuli, as well as a certain drive. For me, I can clearly define two key points in my life: one that got me started in the right logical way, and one that directed me into computers specifically. As for the drive, it's also very much a function of environment, because I have seen my own motivation and desire tide and ebb depending on various external inputs. In conclusion, I would say that there is potential in a majority of us to achieve amazing things, yet this potential requires specific grooming to blossom.

sarvesh 18y ago

Human beings don't always act rationally or irrationally due to emotions. So calling some as logical is illogical, assuming that you meant someone is completely logical when you say 'born logical'. Where and how you grow up plays a big role in how logical you are.

abless 18y ago

What's a logical person?

giardini 18y ago

Of course not! They were all babbling fools as infants.

dkobryn 18y ago

Consider the following analogy. We all have bodies, but few become athletes. We all have minds, but few become thinkers. I think this is a matter of choice influenced by ones predisposition and experiences. Inevitably we choose to specialize in something and that specialization strengthens us in some ways at the cost of weakening us in other ways. -cheers

philonous 18y ago

People were born stupid. Education (and in small part experience) is necessary to the development of the rational faculties.

mccon104 18y ago

Yes. Or at least they have the propensity to become more so than others. My evidence is very very subjective... based on watching children (ages 2-5) you see some have a natural inclination towards order and logic. They love legos, lining up their action figures/matchbox cars, coloring in the lines and when they color they only use colors that make sense (i.e. they won't color a tree blue). While other kids love drawing/painting, giving their parents plays/shows, and creating stories that don't make any sense. They enjoy the chaos of turning little red riding hood into a who-done-it with Optimus Prime and Mario helping find gold on mars.