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RE "South Australia’s last coal-fired power plant had closed, leaving the province of 1.8 million heavily reliant on wind farms and power imports from a neighb

RE "South Australia’s last coal-fired power plant had closed, leaving the province of 1.8 million heavily reliant on wind farms and power imports from a neighboring region. " So - now they import power from places that use coal fired power stations and they have grid stability problems. NOT quitting coal at all. Id ask what is the price of their power KWh?

dgivney 4y ago
> Id ask what is the price of their power KWh? https://aemo.com.au/en/energy-systems/electricity/national-electricity-market-nem/data-nem/data-dashboard-nem https://aemo.com.au/en/energy-systems/electricity/national-e... and historically aggregated: https://www.aer.gov.au/wholesale-markets/wholesale-statistics/annual-volume-weighted-average-30-minute-prices-regions https://www.aer.gov.au/wholesale-markets/wholesale-statistic...
- cavisne 4y ago
  Hilarious, that last graph really shouldve been in this puff piece article.
  - whatever1 4y ago
    Quadruple the energy price in return for replacing coal plants with junk batteries.
    - SturgeonsLaw 4y ago
      Installing a battery in South Australia did not lead to to a quadrupling of national energy prices. The cost of energy globally has shot up since 2020, and Australia's spot prices are based on the global market. https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/PNRGINDEXM https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/PNRGINDEXM Energy independence in the form of renewables is now more advantageous than ever. Tethering your economy to global price hikes like this is a vulnerable position to be in.
      - whatever1 4y ago
        The graph shows the cost of energy globally at worst doubled. So Australia’s increase is double the global average. Also renewables were supposed to decrease the exposure to such global price fluctuations, or at least act as a backstop for the marginal kWh. Apparently the backstop is still much higher. And batteries do not generate energy.
      - nl 4y ago
        Australia's spot prices aren't based on the global market. They are based on the (Australian) national energy market (NEM) which sets price based on supply and demand across South Eastern Australia (WA and NT aren't in the NEM)
- jeeeb 4y ago
  The big jump in the last couple of years coincides with the war in Ukraine and high international gas prices. The government response has been to pressure gas producers to reserve more for the domestic market.
rippercushions 4y ago
If you keep reading, that was the situation seven years ago before the giant Tesla battery that solved their stability problems.
- strken 4y ago
  They still rely on interstate power even after getting the big battery, which solved their frequent brownouts but hasn't actually got much capacity: 150MW and 194MWh[0], when the peak grid demand in SA is 2000MW[1] and they've got grid interconnects with Victoria that can deliver nearly 900MW. They make up the capacity with natural gas generators, and their gas usage went up massively after their coal plants went offline[2]. The biggest problem is that SA is pretty flat[3] and doesn't have good sites for dams. They have a grand total of 3MW of hydroelectric capacity, which means they rely on Victoria (and soon NSW) for renewable energy when peak demand exceeds wind/solar generation, as well as their own gas generators and Victoria's coal plants. The big battery can respond faster than the interstate interconnects (which are far away) and the gas generators (which are expensive to run and only turn on when spot prices are high), which lets it fill the same role a big flywheel would in a coal/nuclear plant. [0] https://hornsdalepowerreserve.com.au/ https://hornsdalepowerreserve.com.au/ [1] https://www.aer.gov.au/wholesale-markets/wholesale-statistics/seasonal-peak-demand-regions https://www.aer.gov.au/wholesale-markets/wholesale-statistic... [2] See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Electricity_generation_SA_2015-2021.svg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Electricity_generation_SA..., which is a year-by-year collection of the data from https://www.energy.gov.au/data/australian-electricity-generation-fuel-mix-calendar-year-2021 https://www.energy.gov.au/data/australian-electricity-genera... [3] https://en-au.topographic-map.com/map-wwnx/South-Australia/?center=-30.38235%2C135.65369 https://en-au.topographic-map.com/map-wwnx/South-Australia/?...
- 0xy 4y ago
  South Australia is building brand new natural gas plants. Basically, doubling down on fossil fuels.
TheLoafOfBread 4y ago
> So - now they import power from places that use coal fired power stations and they have grid stability problems. That sounds like Austria. They really dislikes nuclear power, and are suing all their neighbors for it. But when they have power deficit, they are happily importing power from Czechia or Hungary, where Czechia is having 2 NPPs at the southern border with Austria. Austrians obviously have no issues where the imported power is coming from...
nikcub 4y ago
You can answer these questions on OpenNEM: https://opennem.org.au/energy/sa1/?range=1y&interval=1M https://opennem.org.au/energy/sa1/?range=1y&interval=1M SA imports about ~10% of its power and exports about ~5% at the moment (YTD) and price is cheaper than NSW and QLD
verelo 4y ago
As an Australian living in Canada, I want to say unalike Canada, the term "Province" feels weird to be used here. Australia refers to its divided regions as "States".
- angry_octet 4y ago
  As wrong-sounding as saying "the province of California ..."
  - verelo 4y ago
    Im glad someone else agrees. I expected more from Bloomberg.
    - angry_octet 4y ago
      A comment that might well be made about the entire article.
markmark 4y ago
The other key thing is SAs power use is far smaller than NSW, Victoria and Queensland. So while they can shutdown their coal stations and import if there is a shortfall, those bigger states can't. For example as I type this Queensland is generating about 4300MW of solar, SA is generating about 1300MW of solar, but SA gets all the plaudits for being green.
- omegabravo 4y ago
  As I type this, QLD is using 77% black coal. SA is using 71% gas. Over the past 24hrs SA was 83% renewable (solar+wind), 16% gas. In that same 24hrs QLD was 79% black coal, 12% renewables. Plaudits seem deserved. https://aemo.com.au/energy-systems/electricity/national-electricity-market-nem/data-nem/data-dashboard-nem https://aemo.com.au/energy-systems/electricity/national-elec...
  - markmark 4y ago
    That page is showing generation not use. 83% of the power SA generated was renewable, but it wasn't enough to cover their use, so they imported 28% of their power from interstate, renewables cover 45% and the rest was gas. Other states are too big to just import 28% of their power. SA is small enough they can shut down their coal and just import coal-based power from Victoria. Meanwhile Qld, Vic and NSW each produced more than triple the renewable power SA did today.
    - omegabravo 4y ago
      https://opennem.org.au/energy/sa1/?range=7d&interval=30m https://opennem.org.au/energy/sa1/?range=7d&interval=30m OpenNEM puts it at 12% imported and states 67.9% from renewables. Why would SA want to produce multiple times their requirements in renewable energy? Today during the sunny period more than 100% was fulfilled by solar.

dgivney 4y ago

> Id ask what is the price of their power KWh? https://aemo.com.au/en/energy-systems/electricity/national-electricity-market-nem/data-nem/data-dashboard-nem https://aemo.com.au/en/energy-systems/electricity/national-e... and historically aggregated: https://www.aer.gov.au/wholesale-markets/wholesale-statistics/annual-volume-weighted-average-30-minute-prices-regions https://www.aer.gov.au/wholesale-markets/wholesale-statistic...

cavisne 4y ago
Hilarious, that last graph really shouldve been in this puff piece article.
- whatever1 4y ago
  Quadruple the energy price in return for replacing coal plants with junk batteries.
  - SturgeonsLaw 4y ago
    Installing a battery in South Australia did not lead to to a quadrupling of national energy prices. The cost of energy globally has shot up since 2020, and Australia's spot prices are based on the global market. https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/PNRGINDEXM https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/PNRGINDEXM Energy independence in the form of renewables is now more advantageous than ever. Tethering your economy to global price hikes like this is a vulnerable position to be in.
    - whatever1 4y ago
      The graph shows the cost of energy globally at worst doubled. So Australia’s increase is double the global average. Also renewables were supposed to decrease the exposure to such global price fluctuations, or at least act as a backstop for the marginal kWh. Apparently the backstop is still much higher. And batteries do not generate energy.
    - nl 4y ago
      Australia's spot prices aren't based on the global market. They are based on the (Australian) national energy market (NEM) which sets price based on supply and demand across South Eastern Australia (WA and NT aren't in the NEM)
jeeeb 4y ago
The big jump in the last couple of years coincides with the war in Ukraine and high international gas prices. The government response has been to pressure gas producers to reserve more for the domestic market.

rippercushions 4y ago

If you keep reading, that was the situation seven years ago before the giant Tesla battery that solved their stability problems.

strken 4y ago
They still rely on interstate power even after getting the big battery, which solved their frequent brownouts but hasn't actually got much capacity: 150MW and 194MWh[0], when the peak grid demand in SA is 2000MW[1] and they've got grid interconnects with Victoria that can deliver nearly 900MW. They make up the capacity with natural gas generators, and their gas usage went up massively after their coal plants went offline[2]. The biggest problem is that SA is pretty flat[3] and doesn't have good sites for dams. They have a grand total of 3MW of hydroelectric capacity, which means they rely on Victoria (and soon NSW) for renewable energy when peak demand exceeds wind/solar generation, as well as their own gas generators and Victoria's coal plants. The big battery can respond faster than the interstate interconnects (which are far away) and the gas generators (which are expensive to run and only turn on when spot prices are high), which lets it fill the same role a big flywheel would in a coal/nuclear plant. [0] https://hornsdalepowerreserve.com.au/ https://hornsdalepowerreserve.com.au/ [1] https://www.aer.gov.au/wholesale-markets/wholesale-statistics/seasonal-peak-demand-regions https://www.aer.gov.au/wholesale-markets/wholesale-statistic... [2] See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Electricity_generation_SA_2015-2021.svg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Electricity_generation_SA..., which is a year-by-year collection of the data from https://www.energy.gov.au/data/australian-electricity-generation-fuel-mix-calendar-year-2021 https://www.energy.gov.au/data/australian-electricity-genera... [3] https://en-au.topographic-map.com/map-wwnx/South-Australia/?center=-30.38235%2C135.65369 https://en-au.topographic-map.com/map-wwnx/South-Australia/?...
0xy 4y ago
South Australia is building brand new natural gas plants. Basically, doubling down on fossil fuels.

TheLoafOfBread 4y ago

> So - now they import power from places that use coal fired power stations and they have grid stability problems. That sounds like Austria. They really dislikes nuclear power, and are suing all their neighbors for it. But when they have power deficit, they are happily importing power from Czechia or Hungary, where Czechia is having 2 NPPs at the southern border with Austria. Austrians obviously have no issues where the imported power is coming from...

nikcub 4y ago

You can answer these questions on OpenNEM: https://opennem.org.au/energy/sa1/?range=1y&interval=1M https://opennem.org.au/energy/sa1/?range=1y&interval=1M SA imports about ~10% of its power and exports about ~5% at the moment (YTD) and price is cheaper than NSW and QLD

verelo 4y ago

As an Australian living in Canada, I want to say unalike Canada, the term "Province" feels weird to be used here. Australia refers to its divided regions as "States".

angry_octet 4y ago
As wrong-sounding as saying "the province of California ..."
- verelo 4y ago
  Im glad someone else agrees. I expected more from Bloomberg.
  - angry_octet 4y ago
    A comment that might well be made about the entire article.

markmark 4y ago

The other key thing is SAs power use is far smaller than NSW, Victoria and Queensland. So while they can shutdown their coal stations and import if there is a shortfall, those bigger states can't. For example as I type this Queensland is generating about 4300MW of solar, SA is generating about 1300MW of solar, but SA gets all the plaudits for being green.

omegabravo 4y ago
As I type this, QLD is using 77% black coal. SA is using 71% gas. Over the past 24hrs SA was 83% renewable (solar+wind), 16% gas. In that same 24hrs QLD was 79% black coal, 12% renewables. Plaudits seem deserved. https://aemo.com.au/energy-systems/electricity/national-electricity-market-nem/data-nem/data-dashboard-nem https://aemo.com.au/energy-systems/electricity/national-elec...
- markmark 4y ago
  That page is showing generation not use. 83% of the power SA generated was renewable, but it wasn't enough to cover their use, so they imported 28% of their power from interstate, renewables cover 45% and the rest was gas. Other states are too big to just import 28% of their power. SA is small enough they can shut down their coal and just import coal-based power from Victoria. Meanwhile Qld, Vic and NSW each produced more than triple the renewable power SA did today.
  - omegabravo 4y ago
    https://opennem.org.au/energy/sa1/?range=7d&interval=30m https://opennem.org.au/energy/sa1/?range=7d&interval=30m OpenNEM puts it at 12% imported and states 67.9% from renewables. Why would SA want to produce multiple times their requirements in renewable energy? Today during the sunny period more than 100% was fulfilled by solar.