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> https://ethereum-magicians.org/ https://ethereum-magicians.org/ Another random link, indistinguishable from "just follow the discords" > and also heaped on

> https://ethereum-magicians.org/ https://ethereum-magicians.org/ Another random link, indistinguishable from "just follow the discords" > and also heaped on a little snark, as well. Of course there's snark. That line of "oh you just don't follow the right communities" has been repeated over and over and over again by the crypto proponents. The outcome was invariably the same: a pronounced lack of "true builders". > Please consider politely considering different perspectives here, without necessarily agreeing with them. Please consider that "but there are true builders and true communities" bullshit has been repeated too often for anyone to pay any serious attention to. Even your link is "Ethereum Magicians is a forum for the crypto community to have a place where anyone can join, create topic and discuss mainly about EIPs and technical difficulties of Ethereum ecosystem." So a lot of ado about nothing. It's a self-reinforcing loop of people patting themselves on the back with new ways to do something on the world's most ineffecient VM. Does not make them "true builders".

DANmode 4y ago
You seem to have missed that an effort toward a useful decentralised global consensus chain¹ should only have a secondary-at-best interest in efficiency of a VM, focusing primarily on the priorities of security and decentralization. ¹(whether Ethereum or something else)
- illiarian 4y ago
  > an effort toward a useful decentralised global consensus chain > should only have a secondary-at-best interest in efficiency of a VM Yup. Useful, global, and "efficiency is secondary-at-best". True builders, indeed. But my point wasn't strictly about efficiency of the VM. And, as it always is with crypto-proponents, that point is completely lost, because I don't follow the right discords, sorry, magicians.
  - DANmode 4y ago
    > But my point wasn't strictly about efficiency of the VM. MY point in addressing your efficiency comment is: 1) at least know what you're talking about, regardless of where the heck read it, before writing tech off wholesale, and 2) stop taking weak, adjacent-to-point cultural potshots, because it distracts from your point, which I actually think has some merit. I hate discord, and actively have avoided projects that use it, as well. There, I said it.
    - illiarian 4y ago
      > at least know what you're talking about, regardless of where the heck read it, before writing tech off wholesale You want to argue that EVM is in any way shape or form efficient? There's a reason why storage or large contracts are prohibitevly expensive in it. > stop taking weak, adjacent-to-point cultural potshots No idea what you're talking about. > I hate discord, and actively have avoided projects that use it, as well. There, I said it. It doesn't matter whther you hated it or not. This statement, "It doesn't take belief if you spend any time observing these communities." is indistinguishable from "just follow the discords" which was (and probably still is) the standard response from crypto-proponents. This is equivalent to "just sift through millions tons of shit before maybe finding something worth looking at (which invariably isn't worth looking at)". Your link to show "a community of builders" is not much diferent: they invented a playground and are busy inventing ways to play in the playground (replete with a new jargon)". You still have to sift through millions tons of shit like people wanting to rename gas to mana or "standard to enable reacting to NFTs with emojis". Or people discovering reality and painfully re-inventing existing mechanisms like liens and or contracts forbidding re-selling of something. There's probably something to look at, maybe, but the usefulness of that something will be questionable at best because it still runs in the same self-reinforcing loop of "we have this thing that we say is useful so anything we do in this thing is useful by extension" (both are statements that haven't been proven). This is not "true builders". This is children playing with playdough and coming up with cute names for their playdough creations. And literally everything they do is only applicable to their playdough (because even their main plaything, NFTs, cannot be even store objects it references in the playdough, and needs to store it somewhere else, and has literally zero relationship to, say, real physical world).
      - DANmode 4y ago
        > You want to argue that EVM is in any way shape or form efficient? I do not. Didn't say anything that be interpreted that way — only that you're missing some things.
      - DANmode 4y ago
        > This is not "true builders". This is children playing with playdough and coming up with cute names for their playdough creations. And literally everything they do is only applicable to their playdough Can also easily be said in a new conversation every year about new types of databases, frontend/other frameworks. Just isn't a compelling or concise enough argument for me to forget about how helpful offline ZK-proofs will probably be for near-future real-world transactions, for example.

DANmode 4y ago

You seem to have missed that an effort toward a useful decentralised global consensus chain¹ should only have a secondary-at-best interest in efficiency of a VM, focusing primarily on the priorities of security and decentralization. ¹(whether Ethereum or something else)

illiarian 4y ago
> an effort toward a useful decentralised global consensus chain > should only have a secondary-at-best interest in efficiency of a VM Yup. Useful, global, and "efficiency is secondary-at-best". True builders, indeed. But my point wasn't strictly about efficiency of the VM. And, as it always is with crypto-proponents, that point is completely lost, because I don't follow the right discords, sorry, magicians.
- DANmode 4y ago
  > But my point wasn't strictly about efficiency of the VM. MY point in addressing your efficiency comment is: 1) at least know what you're talking about, regardless of where the heck read it, before writing tech off wholesale, and 2) stop taking weak, adjacent-to-point cultural potshots, because it distracts from your point, which I actually think has some merit. I hate discord, and actively have avoided projects that use it, as well. There, I said it.
  - illiarian 4y ago
    > at least know what you're talking about, regardless of where the heck read it, before writing tech off wholesale You want to argue that EVM is in any way shape or form efficient? There's a reason why storage or large contracts are prohibitevly expensive in it. > stop taking weak, adjacent-to-point cultural potshots No idea what you're talking about. > I hate discord, and actively have avoided projects that use it, as well. There, I said it. It doesn't matter whther you hated it or not. This statement, "It doesn't take belief if you spend any time observing these communities." is indistinguishable from "just follow the discords" which was (and probably still is) the standard response from crypto-proponents. This is equivalent to "just sift through millions tons of shit before maybe finding something worth looking at (which invariably isn't worth looking at)". Your link to show "a community of builders" is not much diferent: they invented a playground and are busy inventing ways to play in the playground (replete with a new jargon)". You still have to sift through millions tons of shit like people wanting to rename gas to mana or "standard to enable reacting to NFTs with emojis". Or people discovering reality and painfully re-inventing existing mechanisms like liens and or contracts forbidding re-selling of something. There's probably something to look at, maybe, but the usefulness of that something will be questionable at best because it still runs in the same self-reinforcing loop of "we have this thing that we say is useful so anything we do in this thing is useful by extension" (both are statements that haven't been proven). This is not "true builders". This is children playing with playdough and coming up with cute names for their playdough creations. And literally everything they do is only applicable to their playdough (because even their main plaything, NFTs, cannot be even store objects it references in the playdough, and needs to store it somewhere else, and has literally zero relationship to, say, real physical world).
    - DANmode 4y ago
      > You want to argue that EVM is in any way shape or form efficient? I do not. Didn't say anything that be interpreted that way — only that you're missing some things.
    - DANmode 4y ago
      > This is not "true builders". This is children playing with playdough and coming up with cute names for their playdough creations. And literally everything they do is only applicable to their playdough Can also easily be said in a new conversation every year about new types of databases, frontend/other frameworks. Just isn't a compelling or concise enough argument for me to forget about how helpful offline ZK-proofs will probably be for near-future real-world transactions, for example.