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>far away country would subject its citizens here to their laws ... >word of this did not reach the authorities for many years The entire PRC "overseas Chine

>far away country would subject its citizens here to their laws ... >word of this did not reach the authorities for many years The entire PRC "overseas Chinese service stations" are AKTUALLY ILLEGAL POLICE STATIONS VIOLATING TERRITORIAL INTEGRITY/SOVEREIGNTY is new propaganda framing to sell United Front threat. State intelligence in the west has known about United Front activities, from their actual (predominant) legitimate diaspora services to their grayscale tactics to "coerce" Chinese diaspora - some dissidents, most financial criminals - to return to PRC on their own accord for 10+ years. Dissidents have been whining about UF for even longer. Like no one's being illegally renditioned, they're being told of personal and extended consequences in PRC if they don't return and face justice. That kind of conversation is legal statecraft, and TBH a workable arrangement between PRC and the west who has no extradition treaty with (due to politics/optics) while actually shelters a fuckton of PRC criminals who should have the book thrown at them in PRC. It makes perfect sense that ex/PRC nationals who committed crimes in PRC should be subject to PRC laws. That's why countries have extradition treatises, because it's bad form to shelter criminals across borders and expect smooth diplomatic relations. The funny side effect of PRC capital controls is that virtually every PRC ex-national with a decent amount of assets abroad didn't get it there legally. The West wants PRC diaspora wealth, knows it's misbegotten, and can't survive politics of formal extraditing to PRC, so we have this informal shenanigans.

jacquesm 4y ago
Then they can make a regular extradition request. That's not what these police stations are used for, they are arms of the CCP into the Chinese communities in other countries, they are used for rendition and intimidation. They are incompatible with our legal system and should not exist.
- qwytw 4y ago
  To be fair Netherlands and many western countries don't have (yet anyway...) extradition treaties with China due to perfectly obvious reasons.
  - jacquesm 4y ago
    There doesn't have to be a treaty for you to make a request. You can then (1) see your request honored because in spite of the absence of a treaty there are good enough reasons to extradite or (2) be told to fuck off. A bit more politely than that of course. Typically whenever there are diplomatic relationships extradition requests can be made and these are honored if there is reciprocity and there is sufficient evidence that the request to be have been made in good faith.
    - dirtyid 4y ago
      This is assuming PRC hasn't made formal requests - been asking for extradition rights / treaties since mid 2000s (before Xi) to host of western countries where big grafters were fleeing. And been given the cold shoulder. Naive to believe polite or none polite fuck off is end of story to west harbouring PRC criminals consquence free, leading to these grayzone methods. "Typical" is reserved for "like minded" relationships, reality is it is political suicide in west to send even criminals to PRC, hence it won't happen no better how sufficient the evidence and faith.
      - weard_beard 4y ago
        It is a good lesson for 1 person, or a whole government: when you look around you and the entire world are assholes it is time to look in the mirror and ask, "Am I the asshole?" If no one will make deals to help your government then maybe you need a new one.
        kelipso 4y ago
        Countries are not people. Your worldview becomes more shifted from reality and full of holes the more you think of an entire country as one person.
        weard_beard 4y ago
        True, government is an ecosystem. If you kill the sparrow but spare the locust you may do more harm than good.
- dirtyid 4y ago
  There's no extradition treaty. Nor are there any illegal renditions. If there were then media wouldn't be screeching over nonsense "intimiation" angle, because person of interest would just get nabbed and it actually be a massive sovereignty violation / diplomatic incident. And it's generally completely compatible with western legal systems, that's how they've operated for so long with awareness from western govs / security. United Front agents passing a note that if person doesn't return to PRC to face justice out of their own acccord is just having a "conversation", frequently delivered by other naturalized citizens. The reason there's so much reeeing about this in western reporting is that there's nothing functionally inappropriate about what PRC is doing since it's just words and actual consquences are happening on PRC soil.
  - jacquesm 4y ago
    It's a bit of a stretch to go from 'intimidiation' to 'extralegal rendition'. Though to be fair there is some evidence that these 'police stations' were used to get people critical of the party to go back 'home' by applying undue pressure. And that's one more reason why they should be shut down. > there's nothing functionally inappropriate about what PRC is doing That's your opinion.
    - dirtyid 4y ago
      I'm just clarifying your assertion that these stations: > are used for rendition There's no extradition agreement between PRC and NE hence rendition could only be extralegal/extraordinary, which these stations are not doing. That's borderline declaration of war territory. I'm not suggesting these stations are not also used to "pressure" / coerce people to return - they explictly are - but my point is in terms of functionally appropriate is there's nothing wrong about informing people about consequences on PRC soil if they don't voluntarily return. I don't see how "free" societies can enforce, in this case dutch nationals (again a lot of these stations are staffed by nationals) telling other dutch nationals about "implications" on PRC soil. That's as tame as it gets in terms of permissible foreign influence.
      - IG_Semmelweiss 4y ago
qwytw 4y ago
Even if they have an extradition treaty it only apply to crimes which are actually crimes in both countries. So most political "criminals" couldn't be extradited anyway... > diaspora wealth, knows it's misbegotten, and can't survive politics of formal extraditing So prosecute them for any crimes they committed in your country? I mean the Chinese government is thoroughly corrupt so the fact the they want to arrest certain people and not others is not a great indicator on which wealth is "misbegotten"... > told of personal and extended consequences Right.. like how much their families will suffer it they won't return. The Soviets were using the same tactic on political dissidents to shut them up, > capital controls is that virtually every PRC ex-national with a decent amount of assets abroad didn't get it there legally Safeguarding the capital control laws of the PRC should be something anyone cares about why exactly?
- dirtyid 4y ago
  Dissidents no, but in terms of financial crime PRC pressure / focus largely on 10s of millions to billion tier, the obviously misbegotten gains that western court system would look retarded to pretend otherwise. Millions of PRC diasphora in the west, are we going to pretend they're all upstanding. PRC isn't generally wasting time on petty graft, and even then optics of cooperating with PRC is none starter. And when did I say other countries care about safeguarding PRC laws, clearly they don't because they benefit from it, including hosting dissidents who get weaponized for anti-PRC campaigns. Hence PRC resorts to grayzone methods like threatening consequences on PRC soil, which is valid tactic calibrated to not actually cross sovereignty lines in host country. There's likely a reason there's so many "investigations" into these sensational "police stations" while so few have actually been shut down. Meanwhile we don't hear about mass PRC agents being deported because most of the messengers are actually citizens who has right to act as intermediaries to activities that doesn't trip up on foreign agent politics.
  - qwytw 4y ago
    > focus largely on 10s of millions to billion tier, the obviously misbegotten gains that western court system would look retarded to pretend otherwise Well yes, but they are only after the misbegotten gains of the people who currently don't have the favor of the party/Winnie-the-Pooh. So either western countries have to become tools for the Chinese "judicial system" or they have to start investigating these alleged crimes themselves to determine which are legit and which are political motivated (problem is that most are probably both...). Neither seems like a great option... Besides this I mostly agree on your take on this whole situation overall though.

jacquesm 4y ago

Then they can make a regular extradition request. That's not what these police stations are used for, they are arms of the CCP into the Chinese communities in other countries, they are used for rendition and intimidation. They are incompatible with our legal system and should not exist.

qwytw 4y ago
To be fair Netherlands and many western countries don't have (yet anyway...) extradition treaties with China due to perfectly obvious reasons.
- jacquesm 4y ago
  There doesn't have to be a treaty for you to make a request. You can then (1) see your request honored because in spite of the absence of a treaty there are good enough reasons to extradite or (2) be told to fuck off. A bit more politely than that of course. Typically whenever there are diplomatic relationships extradition requests can be made and these are honored if there is reciprocity and there is sufficient evidence that the request to be have been made in good faith.
  - dirtyid 4y ago
    This is assuming PRC hasn't made formal requests - been asking for extradition rights / treaties since mid 2000s (before Xi) to host of western countries where big grafters were fleeing. And been given the cold shoulder. Naive to believe polite or none polite fuck off is end of story to west harbouring PRC criminals consquence free, leading to these grayzone methods. "Typical" is reserved for "like minded" relationships, reality is it is political suicide in west to send even criminals to PRC, hence it won't happen no better how sufficient the evidence and faith.
    - weard_beard 4y ago
      It is a good lesson for 1 person, or a whole government: when you look around you and the entire world are assholes it is time to look in the mirror and ask, "Am I the asshole?" If no one will make deals to help your government then maybe you need a new one.
      - kelipso 4y ago
        Countries are not people. Your worldview becomes more shifted from reality and full of holes the more you think of an entire country as one person.
        weard_beard 4y ago
        True, government is an ecosystem. If you kill the sparrow but spare the locust you may do more harm than good.
dirtyid 4y ago
There's no extradition treaty. Nor are there any illegal renditions. If there were then media wouldn't be screeching over nonsense "intimiation" angle, because person of interest would just get nabbed and it actually be a massive sovereignty violation / diplomatic incident. And it's generally completely compatible with western legal systems, that's how they've operated for so long with awareness from western govs / security. United Front agents passing a note that if person doesn't return to PRC to face justice out of their own acccord is just having a "conversation", frequently delivered by other naturalized citizens. The reason there's so much reeeing about this in western reporting is that there's nothing functionally inappropriate about what PRC is doing since it's just words and actual consquences are happening on PRC soil.
- jacquesm 4y ago
  It's a bit of a stretch to go from 'intimidiation' to 'extralegal rendition'. Though to be fair there is some evidence that these 'police stations' were used to get people critical of the party to go back 'home' by applying undue pressure. And that's one more reason why they should be shut down. > there's nothing functionally inappropriate about what PRC is doing That's your opinion.
  - dirtyid 4y ago
    I'm just clarifying your assertion that these stations: > are used for rendition There's no extradition agreement between PRC and NE hence rendition could only be extralegal/extraordinary, which these stations are not doing. That's borderline declaration of war territory. I'm not suggesting these stations are not also used to "pressure" / coerce people to return - they explictly are - but my point is in terms of functionally appropriate is there's nothing wrong about informing people about consequences on PRC soil if they don't voluntarily return. I don't see how "free" societies can enforce, in this case dutch nationals (again a lot of these stations are staffed by nationals) telling other dutch nationals about "implications" on PRC soil. That's as tame as it gets in terms of permissible foreign influence.
    - IG_Semmelweiss 4y ago

qwytw 4y ago

Even if they have an extradition treaty it only apply to crimes which are actually crimes in both countries. So most political "criminals" couldn't be extradited anyway... > diaspora wealth, knows it's misbegotten, and can't survive politics of formal extraditing So prosecute them for any crimes they committed in your country? I mean the Chinese government is thoroughly corrupt so the fact the they want to arrest certain people and not others is not a great indicator on which wealth is "misbegotten"... > told of personal and extended consequences Right.. like how much their families will suffer it they won't return. The Soviets were using the same tactic on political dissidents to shut them up, > capital controls is that virtually every PRC ex-national with a decent amount of assets abroad didn't get it there legally Safeguarding the capital control laws of the PRC should be something anyone cares about why exactly?

dirtyid 4y ago
Dissidents no, but in terms of financial crime PRC pressure / focus largely on 10s of millions to billion tier, the obviously misbegotten gains that western court system would look retarded to pretend otherwise. Millions of PRC diasphora in the west, are we going to pretend they're all upstanding. PRC isn't generally wasting time on petty graft, and even then optics of cooperating with PRC is none starter. And when did I say other countries care about safeguarding PRC laws, clearly they don't because they benefit from it, including hosting dissidents who get weaponized for anti-PRC campaigns. Hence PRC resorts to grayzone methods like threatening consequences on PRC soil, which is valid tactic calibrated to not actually cross sovereignty lines in host country. There's likely a reason there's so many "investigations" into these sensational "police stations" while so few have actually been shut down. Meanwhile we don't hear about mass PRC agents being deported because most of the messengers are actually citizens who has right to act as intermediaries to activities that doesn't trip up on foreign agent politics.
- qwytw 4y ago
  > focus largely on 10s of millions to billion tier, the obviously misbegotten gains that western court system would look retarded to pretend otherwise Well yes, but they are only after the misbegotten gains of the people who currently don't have the favor of the party/Winnie-the-Pooh. So either western countries have to become tools for the Chinese "judicial system" or they have to start investigating these alleged crimes themselves to determine which are legit and which are political motivated (problem is that most are probably both...). Neither seems like a great option... Besides this I mostly agree on your take on this whole situation overall though.