4 ms·

I'm in a way surprised that the Netherlands still have such open relation with China after the soying and now intimidating journalists. Will it really take unt

by 0dayz 4y ago

I'm in a way surprised that the Netherlands still have such open relation with China after the soying and now intimidating journalists. Will it really take until a politician (not local) in parliament gets spied / threaten until action is taken?

A_D_E_P_T 4y ago
It doesn't necessarily seem as though the Chinese government is behind this. Look at what actually happened: Somebody called in a bomb threat under her name, and somebody made some fake reservations under that name at a hotel near the location they were "threatening." ...That's the sort of thing a bored teenager on 4Chan or KiwiFarms would do, without even breaking a sweat. There's nothing in the article to suggest that the Chinese government is behind this; their only action was to report the bomb threat as though it was credible. The threat itself probably came from some terminally-online, but patriotic, expat Chinese ne'er-do-well.
- robocat 4y ago
  > That's the sort of thing a bored teenager on 4Chan or KiwiFarms would do Are Chinese operators sophisticated enough to encourage people on 4chan/kiwifarms to do the dirty work for them? 4chan is probably an unreliable gun to trigger, but the random effects when triggered could be useful if you want to cause grief to a target.
  - A_D_E_P_T 4y ago
    They have their own versions. This is old, but illustrates the problem: https://thechinaproject.com/2019/11/01/inside-chinas-recently-shuttered-4chan-like-doxing-sites/ https://thechinaproject.com/2019/11/01/inside-chinas-recentl... Needless to say, that type of online community is virtually impossible to shut down. Shutter one site, and another will pop up. China is not at all unique in that regard: Even though it was hit with unusual and really quite severe measures in an effort to take it offline, The Daily Stormer is still going strong. Any bored teenager with a text-to-speech app and a stolen or prepaid credit card could have pulled off the stunt mentioned in OP.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- throwaway290 4y ago
  Actually you may be right. There are many instances, like SerpentZA's parents being harassed in their home country (https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-i-hung-up-on-warre https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-i-hung-up-on-warre...) or student from Hong Kong being doxxed and harassed in US (https://www.boston.com/news/local-news/2019/05/28/frances-hu https://www.boston.com/news/local-news/2019/05/28/frances-hu...) that are obviously done by people sympathizing with CCP but without an obvious direct participation of Chinese government. Although keep in mind that if they are doing this it is a consequence of their government's policy encouraging this behavior.
  - jiggunjer 4y ago
    Yeah, important distinction from a government perspective. It's not the ccp, it's only the hyper nationalist zealots created by the ccp.
dist-epoch 4y ago
Russian militias with Russian military hardware shot down a plane which had 192 Netherlands people on board and there was no response from Netherlands, besides a 8 year long "legal action" which issued arrest warrants. At minimum they should have sent a squad for the commander who ordered the firing and who is a big social media star today on Russian Telegram.
- jacquesm 4y ago
  Yes, I'm sure starting a war was exactly what was needed at the time. The question really is if we had done that - and there were plenty of voices calling for just that - if the Ukraine situation would have improved or gotten worse. You could make pretty strong arguments either way.
  - adolph 4y ago
    There was no need for war to send a message. Taking tailored action against the SAM crew, leadership, associates and families would be sufficient and may have been happening already. Ukraine is orthogonal to the issue.
    - jacquesm 4y ago
      I'm pretty sure Russia would have absolutely loved such a pretext.
      - stametseater 4y ago
        If Russia wanted a pretext to start a war with NATO, they would have invented one already by now.
    - lostlogin 4y ago
      > leadership Including Putin? How would this work?
tyfon 4y ago
I am really surprised that the western governments still talk about how the free trade will somehow magically turn the CCP into a democratic government with a serious face. The reality is that they are extremely afraid that the flow of cheap goods from china to the population will stop I think.
- Ingaz 4y ago
  "Free trade" with China ended many years ago. Just look what they did with Huawei in pretense of security. If that's free trade - then I'm Santa Klaus
  - nailer 4y ago
    Well yeah, if you have firmware access on a device you can use it to intercept. That’s basic infosec. That’s a very different matter from the CCP stealing IP or even entire companies.
    - lostlogin 4y ago
      Camera footage helps both your examples a fair bit.
    - Ingaz 4y ago
      I think "Stealing IP" phase finished for China a long time ago. Like for Japan of 70s I can speak only from my experience. In 2000s we heard that Huawei GSM is copycat of Erricson and Huawei CDMA is Qualcomm. I had very limited experience with both GSM and CDMA switches - I saw nothing similar. I can't say for sure about CDMA but Huawei GSM was certainly different from Erricson switches I saw
      - cbilson 4y ago
        > I think "Stealing IP" phase finished for China a long time ago. https://www.taipeitimes.com/News/taiwan/archives/2023/04/05/2003797351 https://www.taipeitimes.com/News/taiwan/archives/2023/04/05/...

by 0dayz 4y ago

A_D_E_P_T 4y ago

It doesn't necessarily seem as though the Chinese government is behind this. Look at what actually happened: Somebody called in a bomb threat under her name, and somebody made some fake reservations under that name at a hotel near the location they were "threatening." ...That's the sort of thing a bored teenager on 4Chan or KiwiFarms would do, without even breaking a sweat. There's nothing in the article to suggest that the Chinese government is behind this; their only action was to report the bomb threat as though it was credible. The threat itself probably came from some terminally-online, but patriotic, expat Chinese ne'er-do-well.

robocat 4y ago
> That's the sort of thing a bored teenager on 4Chan or KiwiFarms would do Are Chinese operators sophisticated enough to encourage people on 4chan/kiwifarms to do the dirty work for them? 4chan is probably an unreliable gun to trigger, but the random effects when triggered could be useful if you want to cause grief to a target.
- A_D_E_P_T 4y ago
  They have their own versions. This is old, but illustrates the problem: https://thechinaproject.com/2019/11/01/inside-chinas-recently-shuttered-4chan-like-doxing-sites/ https://thechinaproject.com/2019/11/01/inside-chinas-recentl... Needless to say, that type of online community is virtually impossible to shut down. Shutter one site, and another will pop up. China is not at all unique in that regard: Even though it was hit with unusual and really quite severe measures in an effort to take it offline, The Daily Stormer is still going strong. Any bored teenager with a text-to-speech app and a stolen or prepaid credit card could have pulled off the stunt mentioned in OP.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
throwaway290 4y ago
Actually you may be right. There are many instances, like SerpentZA's parents being harassed in their home country (https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-i-hung-up-on-warre https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-i-hung-up-on-warre...) or student from Hong Kong being doxxed and harassed in US (https://www.boston.com/news/local-news/2019/05/28/frances-hu https://www.boston.com/news/local-news/2019/05/28/frances-hu...) that are obviously done by people sympathizing with CCP but without an obvious direct participation of Chinese government. Although keep in mind that if they are doing this it is a consequence of their government's policy encouraging this behavior.
- jiggunjer 4y ago
  Yeah, important distinction from a government perspective. It's not the ccp, it's only the hyper nationalist zealots created by the ccp.

dist-epoch 4y ago

Russian militias with Russian military hardware shot down a plane which had 192 Netherlands people on board and there was no response from Netherlands, besides a 8 year long "legal action" which issued arrest warrants. At minimum they should have sent a squad for the commander who ordered the firing and who is a big social media star today on Russian Telegram.

jacquesm 4y ago
Yes, I'm sure starting a war was exactly what was needed at the time. The question really is if we had done that - and there were plenty of voices calling for just that - if the Ukraine situation would have improved or gotten worse. You could make pretty strong arguments either way.
- adolph 4y ago
  There was no need for war to send a message. Taking tailored action against the SAM crew, leadership, associates and families would be sufficient and may have been happening already. Ukraine is orthogonal to the issue.
  - jacquesm 4y ago
    I'm pretty sure Russia would have absolutely loved such a pretext.
    - stametseater 4y ago
      If Russia wanted a pretext to start a war with NATO, they would have invented one already by now.
  - lostlogin 4y ago
    > leadership Including Putin? How would this work?

tyfon 4y ago

I am really surprised that the western governments still talk about how the free trade will somehow magically turn the CCP into a democratic government with a serious face. The reality is that they are extremely afraid that the flow of cheap goods from china to the population will stop I think.

Ingaz 4y ago
"Free trade" with China ended many years ago. Just look what they did with Huawei in pretense of security. If that's free trade - then I'm Santa Klaus
- nailer 4y ago
  Well yeah, if you have firmware access on a device you can use it to intercept. That’s basic infosec. That’s a very different matter from the CCP stealing IP or even entire companies.
  - lostlogin 4y ago
    Camera footage helps both your examples a fair bit.
  - Ingaz 4y ago
    I think "Stealing IP" phase finished for China a long time ago. Like for Japan of 70s I can speak only from my experience. In 2000s we heard that Huawei GSM is copycat of Erricson and Huawei CDMA is Qualcomm. I had very limited experience with both GSM and CDMA switches - I saw nothing similar. I can't say for sure about CDMA but Huawei GSM was certainly different from Erricson switches I saw
    - cbilson 4y ago
      > I think "Stealing IP" phase finished for China a long time ago. https://www.taipeitimes.com/News/taiwan/archives/2023/04/05/2003797351 https://www.taipeitimes.com/News/taiwan/archives/2023/04/05/...