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You could just use cleaner fuel. You don't get anything like as much CO, NOx, SOx, or particulates if you run a petrol engine on propane. You don't even need a

You could just use cleaner fuel. You don't get anything like as much CO, NOx, SOx, or particulates if you run a petrol engine on propane. You don't even need a catalytic converter, although it helps with the microscopic amounts of NOx that does get formed.

doubled112 4y ago
They made propane cars. What happened to them? I know a guy who had one and his verdict was never again. The valve would freeze on a cold enough day and you couldn’t get it started. He even had it freeze while he drove it. These don’t seem like impossible issues to solve though.
- gambiting 4y ago
  What do you mean? Where I'm from LPG cars are extremely popular(13.4% of all cars on the road[0]), the winters are very harsh(-20C and less isn't uncommon), and all these LPG cars drive just fine. I used to have one myself, in winter you basically had to start it on petrol but you could switch to LPG 10 seconds later and it was fine. [0] https://motoryzacja.interia.pl/wiadomosci/ciekawostki/news-polska-gazem-stojaca-ile-aut-jezdzi-u-nas-na-lpg,nId,5953089 https://motoryzacja.interia.pl/wiadomosci/ciekawostki/news-p...
- ryukoposting 4y ago
  Here in the US, the only LPG vehicles I've seen are forklifts and backyard hackjob conversions. My favorite one was a Subaru BRAT with the propane tank strapped into the bed.
  - rascul 4y ago
    UPS and Schwan's, among others, use propane powered trucks.
    - ryukoposting 4y ago
      Those are propane? Huh. Neat.
      - rascul 4y ago
        I think all the Schwan's trucks are, but not all the UPS trucks. The propane powered UPS trucks say propane on the side somewhere.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
- Gordonjcp 4y ago
  Sounds like it was incorrectly installed. In the UK the main problem was that the government went with LPG conversions as the cleaner greener way forward, then got a lot of pushback from car manufacturers who wanted to sell more cars. So in the early 2000s, they pushed diesels as cleaner and more efficient and got everyone to scrap their petrol cars and buy diesels. And you know how that worked out. But the long and short of it is, "what happened to them?" comes down to "they didn't sell enough debt to people" is what happened to them.
sebazzz 4y ago
Why doesn't it happen with propane?
- Gordonjcp 4y ago
  Different chemistry. Petrol must be burnt quite rich in the cylinder - remember in first year chemistry in high school learning how to use a Bunsen burner? Opening up the air valve to get a bright blue flame, closing it down to get a cooler yellow flame? Anyway if you burn hydrocarbons in a fuel-rich environment you get soot and carbon monoxide - there's too much carbon for the amount of oxygen available. Propane wants to burn leaner, and burns with a bigger, slower, and hotter bang. You can run a far leaner mixture without pre-ignition (pinking or knocking) because it's got a higher octane number, something like 115RON. You don't get anything like as much soot, you don't get any carbon monoxide, and because of the different proportions of carbon and hydrogen you get more water vapour and less carbon dioxide per mile travelled.
iamerroragent 4y ago
Why? So let's say people pay to switch the infrastructure to support propane vehicles. Then they switch to electric? Propane also appears to be less energy dense than Gasoline. So people would be buying more fuel than before. I don't know, I don't see the consumer coming out ahead on this while EV will have become the standard in the 2030's.
- Gordonjcp 4y ago
  It's less energy dense, but it's a lot cheaper and cleaner. Electric cars aren't particularly clean or economical to make, and you can convert any existing petrol car for about £1000 to run on LPG.
  - iamerroragent 4y ago
    Electric cars are clean though, you have massive improvement in air quality in cities alone. And they are great economic opportunity since you're selling everyone a new car. That's a massive economic boost. Anything related to mining, well a lot of mining is bad and it's not like internal combustion engines have been all that great for the environment either. So moot imo. Frankly I think the notion that EV is worse for the environment and battery technology being allegedly bad are just parroted talking points that negate to compare how EV would stack up to combustion technology if you applied the same number of engineering man hours to it but I digress. Regardless propane from what I can gather isn't that much cheaper than gasoline at least for the U.S. so any potential savings in it being less expensive is easily lost by needing to burn more to go the same distance as gasoline. Plus the conversion sounds expensive and warranty voiding. Most consumers wouldn't bother.
    - Gordonjcp 4y ago
      They're not very clean to make, which is the bigger problem. If you convert a petrol car to run on propane, the exhaust emissions are water vapour and carbon dioxide, with no CO, no HC, and pretty much no nitrogen or sulphur oxides. This is why things like warehouse forklifts run on propane - you can't die from breathing the exhaust fumes, unlike petrol or diesel. Typically you'd convert older cars, of which we have plenty. We don't need to make new cars, because there are enough cars for everyone - we just need to make them run cleaner.
toast0 4y ago
Propane or natural gas vehicles have great emissions profiles, but unless it's a fleet operation that runs its own filling station, you're going to get range anxiety unless there's a massive uptake. Pressurized fuel tanks have a larger safety requirement than gasoline or diesel, too; additionally, fueling accidents tend to be much higher energy. In the US, at least, the tanks expire and need to be replaced which is often uneconomical and puts a hard cap on vehicle lifetime.
- Gordonjcp 4y ago
  LPG tanks in vehicles are far safer than petrol tanks. Which is more crash-proof? A metal tank made of 5mm thick steel bolted to brackets welded into the frame of the vehicle, or a leaky plastic bucket tied underneath with a couple of straps?
  - toast0 4y ago
    Stress of fueling is probably a bigger deal than crash resistance. Most vehicles never get into a collision, and very few get into a collision where the integrity of fuel storage is an issue, but most are fueled often. I've never seen a gasoline or diesel station have enforced safety requirements, but when I was looking at CNG cars, PG&E required pre-registration to access their fueling station, with a required fuel system safety inspection (which you can't pass with an expired tank) and a safety video. And it would be very inconvenient to drive through California without using their fueling stations. Meanwhile, gasoline stations often run unattended, with no registration or safety inspection.
    - Gordonjcp 4y ago
      CNG is stored at something like 300 bar. LPG is stored at about 8-10 bar. That's less pressure than is in an air suspension tank, and only about three or four times as much pressure as in the tyres.
- WirelessGigabit 4y ago
  In Belgium cars running on LPG cannot park in underground garages even though they go through very stringent MOT-like checks. One of the problems is that conversions need more than just a switch of just gas to LPG. You need a tune and you need an adjustment / expansion of the cooling setup. LPG runs a lot hotter than gasoline and this needs to be managed. Funnily enough modern gasoline engines are tuned to manage temperature by ... dumping in more fuel. Which is why your turbocharged 3 cylinder .9L has amazing mpg while driving calmly, but once you push it it proportionally consumes way more. https://youtu.be/9aO2vC_iMTI?t=252 https://youtu.be/9aO2vC_iMTI?t=252

doubled112 4y ago

They made propane cars. What happened to them? I know a guy who had one and his verdict was never again. The valve would freeze on a cold enough day and you couldn’t get it started. He even had it freeze while he drove it. These don’t seem like impossible issues to solve though.

gambiting 4y ago
What do you mean? Where I'm from LPG cars are extremely popular(13.4% of all cars on the road[0]), the winters are very harsh(-20C and less isn't uncommon), and all these LPG cars drive just fine. I used to have one myself, in winter you basically had to start it on petrol but you could switch to LPG 10 seconds later and it was fine. [0] https://motoryzacja.interia.pl/wiadomosci/ciekawostki/news-polska-gazem-stojaca-ile-aut-jezdzi-u-nas-na-lpg,nId,5953089 https://motoryzacja.interia.pl/wiadomosci/ciekawostki/news-p...
ryukoposting 4y ago
Here in the US, the only LPG vehicles I've seen are forklifts and backyard hackjob conversions. My favorite one was a Subaru BRAT with the propane tank strapped into the bed.
- rascul 4y ago
  UPS and Schwan's, among others, use propane powered trucks.
  - ryukoposting 4y ago
    Those are propane? Huh. Neat.
    - rascul 4y ago
      I think all the Schwan's trucks are, but not all the UPS trucks. The propane powered UPS trucks say propane on the side somewhere.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
Gordonjcp 4y ago
Sounds like it was incorrectly installed. In the UK the main problem was that the government went with LPG conversions as the cleaner greener way forward, then got a lot of pushback from car manufacturers who wanted to sell more cars. So in the early 2000s, they pushed diesels as cleaner and more efficient and got everyone to scrap their petrol cars and buy diesels. And you know how that worked out. But the long and short of it is, "what happened to them?" comes down to "they didn't sell enough debt to people" is what happened to them.

sebazzz 4y ago

Why doesn't it happen with propane?

Gordonjcp 4y ago
Different chemistry. Petrol must be burnt quite rich in the cylinder - remember in first year chemistry in high school learning how to use a Bunsen burner? Opening up the air valve to get a bright blue flame, closing it down to get a cooler yellow flame? Anyway if you burn hydrocarbons in a fuel-rich environment you get soot and carbon monoxide - there's too much carbon for the amount of oxygen available. Propane wants to burn leaner, and burns with a bigger, slower, and hotter bang. You can run a far leaner mixture without pre-ignition (pinking or knocking) because it's got a higher octane number, something like 115RON. You don't get anything like as much soot, you don't get any carbon monoxide, and because of the different proportions of carbon and hydrogen you get more water vapour and less carbon dioxide per mile travelled.

iamerroragent 4y ago

Why? So let's say people pay to switch the infrastructure to support propane vehicles. Then they switch to electric? Propane also appears to be less energy dense than Gasoline. So people would be buying more fuel than before. I don't know, I don't see the consumer coming out ahead on this while EV will have become the standard in the 2030's.

Gordonjcp 4y ago
It's less energy dense, but it's a lot cheaper and cleaner. Electric cars aren't particularly clean or economical to make, and you can convert any existing petrol car for about £1000 to run on LPG.
- iamerroragent 4y ago
  Electric cars are clean though, you have massive improvement in air quality in cities alone. And they are great economic opportunity since you're selling everyone a new car. That's a massive economic boost. Anything related to mining, well a lot of mining is bad and it's not like internal combustion engines have been all that great for the environment either. So moot imo. Frankly I think the notion that EV is worse for the environment and battery technology being allegedly bad are just parroted talking points that negate to compare how EV would stack up to combustion technology if you applied the same number of engineering man hours to it but I digress. Regardless propane from what I can gather isn't that much cheaper than gasoline at least for the U.S. so any potential savings in it being less expensive is easily lost by needing to burn more to go the same distance as gasoline. Plus the conversion sounds expensive and warranty voiding. Most consumers wouldn't bother.
  - Gordonjcp 4y ago
    They're not very clean to make, which is the bigger problem. If you convert a petrol car to run on propane, the exhaust emissions are water vapour and carbon dioxide, with no CO, no HC, and pretty much no nitrogen or sulphur oxides. This is why things like warehouse forklifts run on propane - you can't die from breathing the exhaust fumes, unlike petrol or diesel. Typically you'd convert older cars, of which we have plenty. We don't need to make new cars, because there are enough cars for everyone - we just need to make them run cleaner.

toast0 4y ago

Propane or natural gas vehicles have great emissions profiles, but unless it's a fleet operation that runs its own filling station, you're going to get range anxiety unless there's a massive uptake. Pressurized fuel tanks have a larger safety requirement than gasoline or diesel, too; additionally, fueling accidents tend to be much higher energy. In the US, at least, the tanks expire and need to be replaced which is often uneconomical and puts a hard cap on vehicle lifetime.

Gordonjcp 4y ago
LPG tanks in vehicles are far safer than petrol tanks. Which is more crash-proof? A metal tank made of 5mm thick steel bolted to brackets welded into the frame of the vehicle, or a leaky plastic bucket tied underneath with a couple of straps?
- toast0 4y ago
  Stress of fueling is probably a bigger deal than crash resistance. Most vehicles never get into a collision, and very few get into a collision where the integrity of fuel storage is an issue, but most are fueled often. I've never seen a gasoline or diesel station have enforced safety requirements, but when I was looking at CNG cars, PG&E required pre-registration to access their fueling station, with a required fuel system safety inspection (which you can't pass with an expired tank) and a safety video. And it would be very inconvenient to drive through California without using their fueling stations. Meanwhile, gasoline stations often run unattended, with no registration or safety inspection.
  - Gordonjcp 4y ago
    CNG is stored at something like 300 bar. LPG is stored at about 8-10 bar. That's less pressure than is in an air suspension tank, and only about three or four times as much pressure as in the tyres.
WirelessGigabit 4y ago
In Belgium cars running on LPG cannot park in underground garages even though they go through very stringent MOT-like checks. One of the problems is that conversions need more than just a switch of just gas to LPG. You need a tune and you need an adjustment / expansion of the cooling setup. LPG runs a lot hotter than gasoline and this needs to be managed. Funnily enough modern gasoline engines are tuned to manage temperature by ... dumping in more fuel. Which is why your turbocharged 3 cylinder .9L has amazing mpg while driving calmly, but once you push it it proportionally consumes way more. https://youtu.be/9aO2vC_iMTI?t=252 https://youtu.be/9aO2vC_iMTI?t=252