5 ms·

I would also take that interpretation if the author didn't explicitly mention "socio-demographic background". They should just leave that one out next time.

eyelidlessness 4y ago
> > Your ethnicity and/or gender should not be seen as a barrier to advanced mathematics. > I would also take that interpretation if the author didn't explicitly mention "socio-demographic background". They should just leave that one out next time. Please help me understand. Are you saying that it’s okay to say that ethnicity and/or gender should not be seen as a barrier to advanced mathematics, so long as you don’t explicitly acknowledge that ethnicity and/or gender may presently be a barrier to advanced mathematics? How does that even work? We achieve a meritocracy inherently based on not mentioning that we don’t have anything resembling a meritocracy? Because identifying reality is what makes it real?
- pedrosorio 4y ago
  Read the thread I am responding to.
  - eyelidlessness 4y ago
    I did.
    - pedrosorio 4y ago
      Cool. The summary then is: Ethnicity and Gender and Socio-demographic background != Ethnicity and Gender What you asked in your first comment seem to be orthogonal to the point I was making.
      - eyelidlessness 4y ago
        Ethnicity and gender are two socio-demographic factors of many, yeah. So if I’m understanding you, it’s okay for the educator to want students to feel encouraged to succeed regardless of their ethnicity and gender, but shouldn’t mention any other socio-demographic barriers they might overcome? Or should specify them all? I’m trying to understand why mentioning the term is objectionable.
        pedrosorio 4y ago
        Mentioning ethnicity, gender AND socio-demographic factors, implies this case is a good illustration of OTHER socio-demographic factors that have to be overcome in order to succeed. In particular, with no further information, one might assume a lot more about the difficulties these two girls had to overcome being African American in Louisiana. The State's public schools famously rank very poorly, and there is a strong correlation between socio-economic reality and ethnicity. That's why a comment upthread quoted that section of the article and mentioned it is remiss not to mention the two girls attended a private Catholic school with ~$10k/year tuition. Further down the thread, someone says the message they got from the article was how ethnicity and/or gender should not be seen as a barrier to advanced mathematics. I disagreed that is the only thing the article says. The article does mention this as an inspiring case for people who may see themselves excluded from advanced mathematics because of gender/ethnicity AND other socio-demographic factors. Some very important ones that hold back a lot of black girls (and boys) in the US do not apply in this case.
        eyelidlessness 4y ago
        So your problem is that these individual students weren’t oppressed enough to warrant an educator’s broader generalization that all students shouldn’t be held back by their many and varied forms of barriers? If you recognize that there’s a vast set of intersecting disadvantages, why would you want to turn it into Oppression Olympics? It’s fine to recognize that not all of those power dynamics might be in play in this particular case. But do they really have to all be in play to make a fairly bland statement that no one should be held back by any of them? I have solidarity with these students just as I have with others who have different socio-demographic factors to contend with. They’re not and shouldn’t be in competition for access to education or achievement in life. I don’t understand why that should be controversial even if each and every student has a different configuration of advantages and disadvantages. And I think it does a disservice to the students who have different disadvantages to say no one should speak about them in a unifying way unless they meet an exacting criteria of total disadvantage.

eyelidlessness 4y ago

> > Your ethnicity and/or gender should not be seen as a barrier to advanced mathematics. > I would also take that interpretation if the author didn't explicitly mention "socio-demographic background". They should just leave that one out next time. Please help me understand. Are you saying that it’s okay to say that ethnicity and/or gender should not be seen as a barrier to advanced mathematics, so long as you don’t explicitly acknowledge that ethnicity and/or gender may presently be a barrier to advanced mathematics? How does that even work? We achieve a meritocracy inherently based on not mentioning that we don’t have anything resembling a meritocracy? Because identifying reality is what makes it real?

pedrosorio 4y ago
Read the thread I am responding to.
- eyelidlessness 4y ago
  I did.
  - pedrosorio 4y ago
    Cool. The summary then is: Ethnicity and Gender and Socio-demographic background != Ethnicity and Gender What you asked in your first comment seem to be orthogonal to the point I was making.
    - eyelidlessness 4y ago
      Ethnicity and gender are two socio-demographic factors of many, yeah. So if I’m understanding you, it’s okay for the educator to want students to feel encouraged to succeed regardless of their ethnicity and gender, but shouldn’t mention any other socio-demographic barriers they might overcome? Or should specify them all? I’m trying to understand why mentioning the term is objectionable.
      - pedrosorio 4y ago
        Mentioning ethnicity, gender AND socio-demographic factors, implies this case is a good illustration of OTHER socio-demographic factors that have to be overcome in order to succeed. In particular, with no further information, one might assume a lot more about the difficulties these two girls had to overcome being African American in Louisiana. The State's public schools famously rank very poorly, and there is a strong correlation between socio-economic reality and ethnicity. That's why a comment upthread quoted that section of the article and mentioned it is remiss not to mention the two girls attended a private Catholic school with ~$10k/year tuition. Further down the thread, someone says the message they got from the article was how ethnicity and/or gender should not be seen as a barrier to advanced mathematics. I disagreed that is the only thing the article says. The article does mention this as an inspiring case for people who may see themselves excluded from advanced mathematics because of gender/ethnicity AND other socio-demographic factors. Some very important ones that hold back a lot of black girls (and boys) in the US do not apply in this case.
        eyelidlessness 4y ago
        So your problem is that these individual students weren’t oppressed enough to warrant an educator’s broader generalization that all students shouldn’t be held back by their many and varied forms of barriers? If you recognize that there’s a vast set of intersecting disadvantages, why would you want to turn it into Oppression Olympics? It’s fine to recognize that not all of those power dynamics might be in play in this particular case. But do they really have to all be in play to make a fairly bland statement that no one should be held back by any of them? I have solidarity with these students just as I have with others who have different socio-demographic factors to contend with. They’re not and shouldn’t be in competition for access to education or achievement in life. I don’t understand why that should be controversial even if each and every student has a different configuration of advantages and disadvantages. And I think it does a disservice to the students who have different disadvantages to say no one should speak about them in a unifying way unless they meet an exacting criteria of total disadvantage.