4 ms·

I don’t think Privilege matters in all cases, look at the background of Ada Lovelace.

HL33tibCe7 4y ago
It matters when you try and make the point that this case “should inspire anyone — no matter what their ethnic, gender or socio-demographic background“, as the article does
- JKCalhoun 4y ago
  That's not the way I took the article. Rather I took it to mean something slightly different: Your ethnicity and/or gender should not be seen as a barrier to advanced mathematics. There is a nuanced difference there.
  - pedrosorio 4y ago
    I would also take that interpretation if the author didn't explicitly mention "socio-demographic background". They should just leave that one out next time.
    - eyelidlessness 4y ago
      > > Your ethnicity and/or gender should not be seen as a barrier to advanced mathematics. > I would also take that interpretation if the author didn't explicitly mention "socio-demographic background". They should just leave that one out next time. Please help me understand. Are you saying that it’s okay to say that ethnicity and/or gender should not be seen as a barrier to advanced mathematics, so long as you don’t explicitly acknowledge that ethnicity and/or gender may presently be a barrier to advanced mathematics? How does that even work? We achieve a meritocracy inherently based on not mentioning that we don’t have anything resembling a meritocracy? Because identifying reality is what makes it real?
      - pedrosorio 4y ago
        Read the thread I am responding to.
        eyelidlessness 4y ago
        I did.
        pedrosorio 4y ago
        Cool. The summary then is: Ethnicity and Gender and Socio-demographic background != Ethnicity and Gender What you asked in your first comment seem to be orthogonal to the point I was making.
        eyelidlessness 4y ago
        Ethnicity and gender are two socio-demographic factors of many, yeah. So if I’m understanding you, it’s okay for the educator to want students to feel encouraged to succeed regardless of their ethnicity and gender, but shouldn’t mention any other socio-demographic barriers they might overcome? Or should specify them all? I’m trying to understand why mentioning the term is objectionable.
        pedrosorio 4y ago
        Mentioning ethnicity, gender AND socio-demographic factors, implies this case is a good illustration of OTHER socio-demographic factors that have to be overcome in order to succeed. In particular, with no further information, one might assume a lot more about the difficulties these two girls had to overcome being African American in Louisiana. The State's public schools famously rank very poorly, and there is a strong correlation between socio-economic reality and ethnicity. That's why a comment upthread quoted that section of the article and mentioned it is remiss not to mention the two girls attended a private Catholic school with ~$10k/year tuition. Further down the thread, someone says the message they got from the article was how ethnicity and/or gender should not be seen as a barrier to advanced mathematics. I disagreed that is the only thing the article says. The article does mention this as an inspiring case for people who may see themselves excluded from advanced mathematics because of gender/ethnicity AND other socio-demographic factors. Some very important ones that hold back a lot of black girls (and boys) in the US do not apply in this case.
boomboomsubban 4y ago
... The daughter of Lord Byron?
- foldr 4y ago
  Their point is that Ada Lovelace is still a salient example of a woman who made significant discoveries in computer science, even though she was also privileged in other ways. Indeed, in general, it's often otherwise-privileged members of disadvantaged groups who are the first to make advances.
  - boomboomsubban 4y ago
    The equivalent in Lovelace's case would be saying she's a woman from an area where most women are illiterate and work sixteen hour days in death trap factories. It's true, but ignoring that she was part of the nobility adds a disingenuous element to the statement. And saying that privilege doesn't matter is nonsense, without it she's unlikely to have had the opportunity to do what she did.
    - foldr 4y ago
      I don’t think OP was suggesting that Ada Lovelace wasn’t aided by her privileged position. Rather, they were saying that even though she was privileged, that doesn’t take away from her significance as a woman who was a pioneer in computer science. I doubt that is a controversial point. I think all three of us probably agree, and you may just have misinterpreted the original post.

It matters when you try and make the point that this case “should inspire anyone — no matter what their ethnic, gender or socio-demographic background“, as the article does

JKCalhoun 4y ago
That's not the way I took the article. Rather I took it to mean something slightly different: Your ethnicity and/or gender should not be seen as a barrier to advanced mathematics. There is a nuanced difference there.
- pedrosorio 4y ago
  I would also take that interpretation if the author didn't explicitly mention "socio-demographic background". They should just leave that one out next time.
  - eyelidlessness 4y ago
    > > Your ethnicity and/or gender should not be seen as a barrier to advanced mathematics. > I would also take that interpretation if the author didn't explicitly mention "socio-demographic background". They should just leave that one out next time. Please help me understand. Are you saying that it’s okay to say that ethnicity and/or gender should not be seen as a barrier to advanced mathematics, so long as you don’t explicitly acknowledge that ethnicity and/or gender may presently be a barrier to advanced mathematics? How does that even work? We achieve a meritocracy inherently based on not mentioning that we don’t have anything resembling a meritocracy? Because identifying reality is what makes it real?
    - pedrosorio 4y ago
      Read the thread I am responding to.
      - eyelidlessness 4y ago
        I did.
        pedrosorio 4y ago
        Cool. The summary then is: Ethnicity and Gender and Socio-demographic background != Ethnicity and Gender What you asked in your first comment seem to be orthogonal to the point I was making.
        eyelidlessness 4y ago
        Ethnicity and gender are two socio-demographic factors of many, yeah. So if I’m understanding you, it’s okay for the educator to want students to feel encouraged to succeed regardless of their ethnicity and gender, but shouldn’t mention any other socio-demographic barriers they might overcome? Or should specify them all? I’m trying to understand why mentioning the term is objectionable.
        pedrosorio 4y ago
        Mentioning ethnicity, gender AND socio-demographic factors, implies this case is a good illustration of OTHER socio-demographic factors that have to be overcome in order to succeed. In particular, with no further information, one might assume a lot more about the difficulties these two girls had to overcome being African American in Louisiana. The State's public schools famously rank very poorly, and there is a strong correlation between socio-economic reality and ethnicity. That's why a comment upthread quoted that section of the article and mentioned it is remiss not to mention the two girls attended a private Catholic school with ~$10k/year tuition. Further down the thread, someone says the message they got from the article was how ethnicity and/or gender should not be seen as a barrier to advanced mathematics. I disagreed that is the only thing the article says. The article does mention this as an inspiring case for people who may see themselves excluded from advanced mathematics because of gender/ethnicity AND other socio-demographic factors. Some very important ones that hold back a lot of black girls (and boys) in the US do not apply in this case.

boomboomsubban 4y ago

... The daughter of Lord Byron?

foldr 4y ago
Their point is that Ada Lovelace is still a salient example of a woman who made significant discoveries in computer science, even though she was also privileged in other ways. Indeed, in general, it's often otherwise-privileged members of disadvantaged groups who are the first to make advances.
- boomboomsubban 4y ago
  The equivalent in Lovelace's case would be saying she's a woman from an area where most women are illiterate and work sixteen hour days in death trap factories. It's true, but ignoring that she was part of the nobility adds a disingenuous element to the statement. And saying that privilege doesn't matter is nonsense, without it she's unlikely to have had the opportunity to do what she did.
  - foldr 4y ago
    I don’t think OP was suggesting that Ada Lovelace wasn’t aided by her privileged position. Rather, they were saying that even though she was privileged, that doesn’t take away from her significance as a woman who was a pioneer in computer science. I doubt that is a controversial point. I think all three of us probably agree, and you may just have misinterpreted the original post.