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Immigrants can't vote so this logic is bizarre. The people who make the most money off illegal immigrants in the US are rural land owners, meat packing plant ow

Immigrants can't vote so this logic is bizarre. The people who make the most money off illegal immigrants in the US are rural land owners, meat packing plant owners, etc. They don't want illegal immigration to stop they just want to keep those laborers cheap which wouldn't happen with a reform that makes them comfortable seeking a new employer.

rayiner 4y ago
[flagged]
- roundandround 4y ago
  It sounds to me like you've got some kind of self loathing thing going on. Political arguments are mostly about whether illegal immigrants should get at best a gradual path to citizenship which doesn't mean they will be a tool to win the electoral college.
  - rayiner 4y ago
    Quite the opposite: as I have become more established in this country, I’m less inclined to reject my parents’ values. E.g. JD Vance and my dad are kind of on the same page about childless people. That was never politically motivating for my parents, because they could just tell me “you can’t do what your white friends do.” I can’t realistically tell my own kids that. I have to care about the direction of American culture in a way my parents didn’t. Almost 10% of the potential electorate is foreign born naturalized citizens like me and my parents. Most of these folks aren’t liberal. They are in a political alliance which is based on white liberals supporting immigration and certain welfare systems, and non-white immigrants looking the other way on cultural issues.
    - sudosysgen 4y ago
      As a foreign born naturalized citizen I have the default position that you are extremely wrong on the cultural front. I've attempted to find evidence, and found this study, which indicates that first generation immigrants are actually very close to 4th+ in terms of welfare and taxation : https://www.cato.org/publications/economic-development-bulletin/political-assimilation-immigrants-their-descendants# https://www.cato.org/publications/economic-development-bulle... At the same time, I found other studies showing that second generation immigrants support many left wing social policies, such as gay marriage and multiculturalism, but that recent first generation were slightly less inclined to support gay marriage. It would seem that on the balance, naturalized immigrants (many of which are considered second generation in that study) are on the left socially but not necessarily economically.
      - rayiner 4y ago
        > At the same time, I found other studies showing that second generation immigrants support many left wing social policies, such as gay marriage and multiculturalism, but that recent first generation were slightly less inclined to support gay marriage. What country are you originally from? I’m a first generation immigrant from South Asia, and in my experience, support for socially liberal policies in these communities is often based on compartmentalization. For example, Hindu Americans may support multiculturalism, insofar as they are religious minorities in a Christian majority country. But 70% also support Modi, who definitely doesn’t have a multicultural vision of India: https://theprint.in/india/49-of-indian-americans-back-pm-modi-voted-republican-survey-finds/601182 https://theprint.in/india/49-of-indian-americans-back-pm-mod.... One rule for their own country, different rule for someone else’s country. Similarly, most Muslim Americans support gay marriage. But not in their own families: https://www.cnn.com/2019/05/28/us/lgbt-muslims-pride-progress/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2019/05/28/us/lgbt-muslims-pride-progres.... That’s why liberals like immigrants. When they seek to change American culture, immigrants like my parents think “well let the Americans do what they want.”
        roundandround 4y ago
        I don't see how it is a criticism of a rainbow coalition that they are able to redirect people away from intolerance even if the only motivator is self interest. This is in fact why the republic is structured as it is, should we pretend people are inherently good and switch to a simple democracy that can vote for its first genocide next week?
        rayiner 4y ago
        In a democracy, it absolutely is a criticism of a political party that it can’t win elections among an electorate that is securely rooted in the country, and must instead rely on newcomers who will put aside their own values because of their precarious circumstances. Democracy is about allowing people to create the society they want to live in, not maximizing individual freedom from moral regulation. Using immigration to enact social change that is undesired among both the people already here and people coming here undermines democracy.
- dctoedt 4y ago
  > Hilary Clinton would consider most of the people in my community “deplorables.” From Time magazine's summary of Clinton's remarks — which are spot-on: <quote> “You know, to just be grossly generalistic, you could put half of Trump’s supporters into what I call the basket of deplorables. Right?” Clinton said. “The racist, sexist, homophobic, xenophobic, Islamaphobic—you name it. And unfortunately there are people like that. And he has lifted them up.” She said the other half of Trump’s supporters “feel that the government has let them down” and are “desperate for change.” “Those are people we have to understand and empathize with as well,” she said. </quote> The Time piece includes the transcript of the full remarks. https://time.com/4486502/hillary-clinton-basket-of-deplorables-transcript/ https://time.com/4486502/hillary-clinton-basket-of-deplorabl...
  - rayiner 4y ago
    [flagged]
    - dctoedt 4y ago
      Those who "believe the same things about nationality, gender roles, same sex marriage, etc., as even pretty liberal Bangladeshis" are free to practice their beliefs. But they should expect forceful pushback if they try to compel others to conform to those beliefs as well.* * With the usual caveat of assuming that nonconformance to those beliefs doesn't cause harm to other "people" — and on that, Blackmun got it more or less right in Roe.
      - rayiner 4y ago
        Both evangelicals in Wisconsin and Bangladeshis tend to believe that society can regulate individual morality for the common good. They don’t embrace your libertarian view. You’re welcome to it, but you’re merely proving my point. Social liberals use immigration to advance minority positions they couldn’t achieve otherwise.
        dctoedt 4y ago

rayiner 4y ago

[flagged]

roundandround 4y ago
It sounds to me like you've got some kind of self loathing thing going on. Political arguments are mostly about whether illegal immigrants should get at best a gradual path to citizenship which doesn't mean they will be a tool to win the electoral college.
- rayiner 4y ago
  Quite the opposite: as I have become more established in this country, I’m less inclined to reject my parents’ values. E.g. JD Vance and my dad are kind of on the same page about childless people. That was never politically motivating for my parents, because they could just tell me “you can’t do what your white friends do.” I can’t realistically tell my own kids that. I have to care about the direction of American culture in a way my parents didn’t. Almost 10% of the potential electorate is foreign born naturalized citizens like me and my parents. Most of these folks aren’t liberal. They are in a political alliance which is based on white liberals supporting immigration and certain welfare systems, and non-white immigrants looking the other way on cultural issues.
  - sudosysgen 4y ago
    As a foreign born naturalized citizen I have the default position that you are extremely wrong on the cultural front. I've attempted to find evidence, and found this study, which indicates that first generation immigrants are actually very close to 4th+ in terms of welfare and taxation : https://www.cato.org/publications/economic-development-bulletin/political-assimilation-immigrants-their-descendants# https://www.cato.org/publications/economic-development-bulle... At the same time, I found other studies showing that second generation immigrants support many left wing social policies, such as gay marriage and multiculturalism, but that recent first generation were slightly less inclined to support gay marriage. It would seem that on the balance, naturalized immigrants (many of which are considered second generation in that study) are on the left socially but not necessarily economically.
    - rayiner 4y ago
      > At the same time, I found other studies showing that second generation immigrants support many left wing social policies, such as gay marriage and multiculturalism, but that recent first generation were slightly less inclined to support gay marriage. What country are you originally from? I’m a first generation immigrant from South Asia, and in my experience, support for socially liberal policies in these communities is often based on compartmentalization. For example, Hindu Americans may support multiculturalism, insofar as they are religious minorities in a Christian majority country. But 70% also support Modi, who definitely doesn’t have a multicultural vision of India: https://theprint.in/india/49-of-indian-americans-back-pm-modi-voted-republican-survey-finds/601182 https://theprint.in/india/49-of-indian-americans-back-pm-mod.... One rule for their own country, different rule for someone else’s country. Similarly, most Muslim Americans support gay marriage. But not in their own families: https://www.cnn.com/2019/05/28/us/lgbt-muslims-pride-progress/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2019/05/28/us/lgbt-muslims-pride-progres.... That’s why liberals like immigrants. When they seek to change American culture, immigrants like my parents think “well let the Americans do what they want.”
      - roundandround 4y ago
        I don't see how it is a criticism of a rainbow coalition that they are able to redirect people away from intolerance even if the only motivator is self interest. This is in fact why the republic is structured as it is, should we pretend people are inherently good and switch to a simple democracy that can vote for its first genocide next week?
        rayiner 4y ago
        In a democracy, it absolutely is a criticism of a political party that it can’t win elections among an electorate that is securely rooted in the country, and must instead rely on newcomers who will put aside their own values because of their precarious circumstances. Democracy is about allowing people to create the society they want to live in, not maximizing individual freedom from moral regulation. Using immigration to enact social change that is undesired among both the people already here and people coming here undermines democracy.
dctoedt 4y ago
> Hilary Clinton would consider most of the people in my community “deplorables.” From Time magazine's summary of Clinton's remarks — which are spot-on: <quote> “You know, to just be grossly generalistic, you could put half of Trump’s supporters into what I call the basket of deplorables. Right?” Clinton said. “The racist, sexist, homophobic, xenophobic, Islamaphobic—you name it. And unfortunately there are people like that. And he has lifted them up.” She said the other half of Trump’s supporters “feel that the government has let them down” and are “desperate for change.” “Those are people we have to understand and empathize with as well,” she said. </quote> The Time piece includes the transcript of the full remarks. https://time.com/4486502/hillary-clinton-basket-of-deplorables-transcript/ https://time.com/4486502/hillary-clinton-basket-of-deplorabl...
- rayiner 4y ago
  [flagged]
  - dctoedt 4y ago
    Those who "believe the same things about nationality, gender roles, same sex marriage, etc., as even pretty liberal Bangladeshis" are free to practice their beliefs. But they should expect forceful pushback if they try to compel others to conform to those beliefs as well.* * With the usual caveat of assuming that nonconformance to those beliefs doesn't cause harm to other "people" — and on that, Blackmun got it more or less right in Roe.
    - rayiner 4y ago
      Both evangelicals in Wisconsin and Bangladeshis tend to believe that society can regulate individual morality for the common good. They don’t embrace your libertarian view. You’re welcome to it, but you’re merely proving my point. Social liberals use immigration to advance minority positions they couldn’t achieve otherwise.
      - dctoedt 4y ago