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I didn't say "economic value". Let's take "modifying a vehicle" as an example. Will you keep it in your garage guarding it from anybody's sight? Why are you doi

I didn't say "economic value". Let's take "modifying a vehicle" as an example. Will you keep it in your garage guarding it from anybody's sight? Why are you doing it? What's coming to your mind? It's not always as straightforward as "economic value". You want somebody to look at your vehicle, you want to show it to somebody. What for? Keep it in your garage, you are doing it for your "mental side", aren't you? Money and economic value is not the only way of keeping society together, there are others. If you are showing your vehicle to somebody, you _are_ expecting something in return. Acquaintance? Friendship? Help when you need it? Continue yourself.

danShumway 4y ago
This is kind of a circular definition. When you get this broad with your definition of value/payment, basically what you're saying is that work is meaningful if you derive meaning and/or personal value from it. Which, sure, I agree with that. But that doesn't mean it'll be monetizable in the traditional sense, and it doesn't mean that traditional employment is the only place to get that value. Many of the things you're talking about aren't representable in dollar form, and it's not clear to me how decoupling income from traditional jobs would mean that those activities would stop being meaningful. Certainly, a lot of those activities are already activities that you can't really make money off of (or at least the vast majority of people engaged in those activities can't).
- vc8f6vVV 4y ago
  I specifically mentioned that you don't have to work "for a company". Jeff Bezos is not a traditional employee last time I checked. Neither are mom and pop shops or self-employed contractors. Just not everybody wants to deal with a hassle of being the one. But aside from that a lot of "no money" activities bring you friends (AKA connections), position in a society (think about OSS, can it help you to find a good paying and interesting job if you are Linus Torvalds?). Sometimes you get benefits where you don't expect. It's still "monetizable" in my books as opposed to "I'm doing something nobody needs and enjoying it while living on a basic income".
  - danShumway 4y ago
    I think that's completely reasonable to have as a definition, I've got no issues with you there. I don't think it contradicts anything in the above thread though. The "monetizable" activities you're talking about here under your definition will still exist in a theoretical world where AI takes over traditional employment. Separating "making a living" from "having a traditional job" wouldn't get rid of any of the social monetization you describe.
    - vc8f6vVV 4y ago
      AI won't take over traditional employment either, humans tend to congregate and choose leader(s) as many tasks are not possible to accomplish alone, with AI or not. If there are leaders, there will be an employment of some kind, it's a fundamental thing. Money is only an equivalent of a value in exchange, so "monetizable" in the wide sense of this word is "exchangeable", and it almost always applies to social activities even like running a marathon, otherwise people would run those 26 miles alone in the forest.
      - danShumway 4y ago
        > otherwise people would run those 26 miles alone in the forest. This is kind of a side note, but have you never learned an ability or tried to master a skill in secret? There's nothing wrong with being motivated by social capital, but if you extrapolate out from that to assume everyone is primarily motivated that way, you might be universalizing a personal trait that isn't really universal. There are a lot of things I practice and do alone that never get exchanged for social capital: drawing, I play single-player games, I cook. These are activities where I either master a skill on my own (sometimes purely for the intrinsic motivation of mastering it even though it produces no value outside of that), or because (in the case of things like food/personal-programming/etc) because it produces "value" for myself that isn't exchanged with anyone else. I'm not saying community and social capital doesn't exist, but if you are defining value purely in a transactional sense, you are missing out on a lot of human motivation. People do things alone without ever entering into a community around those activities or showing the results to anyone else.

danShumway 4y ago

This is kind of a circular definition. When you get this broad with your definition of value/payment, basically what you're saying is that work is meaningful if you derive meaning and/or personal value from it. Which, sure, I agree with that. But that doesn't mean it'll be monetizable in the traditional sense, and it doesn't mean that traditional employment is the only place to get that value. Many of the things you're talking about aren't representable in dollar form, and it's not clear to me how decoupling income from traditional jobs would mean that those activities would stop being meaningful. Certainly, a lot of those activities are already activities that you can't really make money off of (or at least the vast majority of people engaged in those activities can't).

vc8f6vVV 4y ago
I specifically mentioned that you don't have to work "for a company". Jeff Bezos is not a traditional employee last time I checked. Neither are mom and pop shops or self-employed contractors. Just not everybody wants to deal with a hassle of being the one. But aside from that a lot of "no money" activities bring you friends (AKA connections), position in a society (think about OSS, can it help you to find a good paying and interesting job if you are Linus Torvalds?). Sometimes you get benefits where you don't expect. It's still "monetizable" in my books as opposed to "I'm doing something nobody needs and enjoying it while living on a basic income".
- danShumway 4y ago
  I think that's completely reasonable to have as a definition, I've got no issues with you there. I don't think it contradicts anything in the above thread though. The "monetizable" activities you're talking about here under your definition will still exist in a theoretical world where AI takes over traditional employment. Separating "making a living" from "having a traditional job" wouldn't get rid of any of the social monetization you describe.
  - vc8f6vVV 4y ago
    AI won't take over traditional employment either, humans tend to congregate and choose leader(s) as many tasks are not possible to accomplish alone, with AI or not. If there are leaders, there will be an employment of some kind, it's a fundamental thing. Money is only an equivalent of a value in exchange, so "monetizable" in the wide sense of this word is "exchangeable", and it almost always applies to social activities even like running a marathon, otherwise people would run those 26 miles alone in the forest.
    - danShumway 4y ago
      > otherwise people would run those 26 miles alone in the forest. This is kind of a side note, but have you never learned an ability or tried to master a skill in secret? There's nothing wrong with being motivated by social capital, but if you extrapolate out from that to assume everyone is primarily motivated that way, you might be universalizing a personal trait that isn't really universal. There are a lot of things I practice and do alone that never get exchanged for social capital: drawing, I play single-player games, I cook. These are activities where I either master a skill on my own (sometimes purely for the intrinsic motivation of mastering it even though it produces no value outside of that), or because (in the case of things like food/personal-programming/etc) because it produces "value" for myself that isn't exchanged with anyone else. I'm not saying community and social capital doesn't exist, but if you are defining value purely in a transactional sense, you are missing out on a lot of human motivation. People do things alone without ever entering into a community around those activities or showing the results to anyone else.