4 ms·

A lot of Iranians see US foreign policy as aiding or even causing the current Iranian government.

by Centigonal 4y ago

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
weatherlite 4y ago
Perhaps, that doesn't make it true though...
- Centigonal 4y ago
  Causality in global geopolitics is complicated, multifactorial, and generally very difficult to pin down. The original comment was talking about the perceptions of Iranians, and my comments speaks to the perceptions I have seen. US-Iran relations post-WW2 and why some Iranians see the US as a causal factor for the current repressive regime is a fascinating topic! If you want to explore, here are a few starting points: 1. More of an anti-Shah stance: https://opensiuc.lib.siu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1008&context=legacy https://opensiuc.lib.siu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=100... 2. More of a pro-Shah, US-centric stance: https://www.brookings.edu/opinions/1979-iran-and-america/ https://www.brookings.edu/opinions/1979-iran-and-america/
  - weatherlite 4y ago
    At what point do we allow people (in this case the Iranian regime) to have free will / self agency? And also - we usually don't allow ourselves to go 50 years back to explain someone's behavior. At least in court - that kind of testimony wouldn't have much value.
    - defrost 4y ago
      US Courts (and others) will lock up or send to death row some on evidence that they killed someone 50 years ago (and more) .. murder has no statute of limitations. US actions set the conditions (a foreign puppet ruler) for a people's overthrow which itself was usurped by the worst form of theocrats (your "Iranian Regime") who maintain power by murder (public hangings in squares, etc) .. and act which, again, US Courts have no time limitation on the consideration of.
      - weatherlite 4y ago
        > US Courts (and others) will lock up or send to death row some on evidence that they killed someone 50 years ago (and more) .. murder has no statute of limitations. That's not what I meant. What I meant was no one will excuse what Ted Bundy did because his parents had a divorce or were mean to him when he was a kid. While we acknowledge that stuff that happened decades ago still might have an effect today, we tend to attribute people with self agency. I think we should do the same with the current Iranian regime or all countries for that matter. Also, these theories will never be verifiable. I don't see what's so interesting in exploring them then. This might be because of what the U.S did, or it might be because of what Iraq did (one million people died in the Iran-Iraq war), or simply it might be bad ideas in the minds of religious fanatics - or a million other things or a combination of them. What do we do with it then?
      - midoridensha 4y ago
        The current Iranian regime maintains power because Iranians support it. No regime rules without a sufficient fraction of the populace supporting it. The US actions were many decades ago. Blaming the US for current affairs in Iran is like blaming the British for problems in the US today.
        Centigonal 4y ago
        > The current Iranian regime maintains power because Iranians support it. Some Iranians love their government! This is true in every country. On the whole, though, this is a gross mischaracterization. Iran has been having enormous countrywide protests and strikes for the last several years. The scale of these cannot be understated. Protests in every city and town, and many small villages, across the entire country, for months and months on end. Over 20,000 Iranians have been arrested in the most recent wave of protests, and somewhere between 500 and 5,000 have been killed since September 2022. The government steals people's corpses and buries them in secret so that the true death toll is hidden. Iran has the largest standing military in the Middle East. About a third of the military is the IRGC, who is sworn protect not the people or national sovereignty, but rather to the Supreme Leader and the Islamic Republic, and is frequently deployed domestically. They have been instrumental in crushing protests, going as far as shelling their own villages with artillery to quell dissent. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahsa_Amini_protests https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahsa_Amini_protests https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2022_Iranian_food_protests https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2022_Iranian_food_protests https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019%E2%80%932020_Iranian_protests https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019%E2%80%932020_Iranian_prot... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018%E2%80%932019_Iranian_general_strikes_and_protests https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018%E2%80%932019_Iranian_gene... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011–2012_Iranian_protests https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011–2012_Iranian_protests https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_Iranian_presidential_election_protests https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_Iranian_presidential_elec...

A lot of Iranians see US foreign policy as aiding or even causing the current Iranian government.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

weatherlite 4y ago

Perhaps, that doesn't make it true though...

Centigonal 4y ago
Causality in global geopolitics is complicated, multifactorial, and generally very difficult to pin down. The original comment was talking about the perceptions of Iranians, and my comments speaks to the perceptions I have seen. US-Iran relations post-WW2 and why some Iranians see the US as a causal factor for the current repressive regime is a fascinating topic! If you want to explore, here are a few starting points: 1. More of an anti-Shah stance: https://opensiuc.lib.siu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1008&context=legacy https://opensiuc.lib.siu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=100... 2. More of a pro-Shah, US-centric stance: https://www.brookings.edu/opinions/1979-iran-and-america/ https://www.brookings.edu/opinions/1979-iran-and-america/
- weatherlite 4y ago
  At what point do we allow people (in this case the Iranian regime) to have free will / self agency? And also - we usually don't allow ourselves to go 50 years back to explain someone's behavior. At least in court - that kind of testimony wouldn't have much value.
  - defrost 4y ago
    US Courts (and others) will lock up or send to death row some on evidence that they killed someone 50 years ago (and more) .. murder has no statute of limitations. US actions set the conditions (a foreign puppet ruler) for a people's overthrow which itself was usurped by the worst form of theocrats (your "Iranian Regime") who maintain power by murder (public hangings in squares, etc) .. and act which, again, US Courts have no time limitation on the consideration of.
    - weatherlite 4y ago
      > US Courts (and others) will lock up or send to death row some on evidence that they killed someone 50 years ago (and more) .. murder has no statute of limitations. That's not what I meant. What I meant was no one will excuse what Ted Bundy did because his parents had a divorce or were mean to him when he was a kid. While we acknowledge that stuff that happened decades ago still might have an effect today, we tend to attribute people with self agency. I think we should do the same with the current Iranian regime or all countries for that matter. Also, these theories will never be verifiable. I don't see what's so interesting in exploring them then. This might be because of what the U.S did, or it might be because of what Iraq did (one million people died in the Iran-Iraq war), or simply it might be bad ideas in the minds of religious fanatics - or a million other things or a combination of them. What do we do with it then?
    - midoridensha 4y ago
      The current Iranian regime maintains power because Iranians support it. No regime rules without a sufficient fraction of the populace supporting it. The US actions were many decades ago. Blaming the US for current affairs in Iran is like blaming the British for problems in the US today.
      - Centigonal 4y ago
        > The current Iranian regime maintains power because Iranians support it. Some Iranians love their government! This is true in every country. On the whole, though, this is a gross mischaracterization. Iran has been having enormous countrywide protests and strikes for the last several years. The scale of these cannot be understated. Protests in every city and town, and many small villages, across the entire country, for months and months on end. Over 20,000 Iranians have been arrested in the most recent wave of protests, and somewhere between 500 and 5,000 have been killed since September 2022. The government steals people's corpses and buries them in secret so that the true death toll is hidden. Iran has the largest standing military in the Middle East. About a third of the military is the IRGC, who is sworn protect not the people or national sovereignty, but rather to the Supreme Leader and the Islamic Republic, and is frequently deployed domestically. They have been instrumental in crushing protests, going as far as shelling their own villages with artillery to quell dissent. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahsa_Amini_protests https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahsa_Amini_protests https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2022_Iranian_food_protests https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2022_Iranian_food_protests https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019%E2%80%932020_Iranian_protests https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019%E2%80%932020_Iranian_prot... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018%E2%80%932019_Iranian_general_strikes_and_protests https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018%E2%80%932019_Iranian_gene... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011–2012_Iranian_protests https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011–2012_Iranian_protests https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_Iranian_presidential_election_protests https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_Iranian_presidential_elec...