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Yeah, as somebody who has experimented with fasting, I think it's a huge mistake to think that Ramadan fasters would respond like hungry non-fasters. Fasting i

Yeah, as somebody who has experimented with fasting, I think it's a huge mistake to think that Ramadan fasters would respond like hungry non-fasters. Fasting is a common religious practice because it is both a challenge and a discipline. To get good at fasting, you have to work to unlearn habits of instant gratification and learn to consciously lean against the urgings of the body. A fasting practice develops real skills. It's perfectly plausible to me that Ramadan-observing judges would better at judging while hungry while non-fasters would get worse. So this article's author is doing exactly what he criticizes: assuming his naive model is the only explanation.

nashashmi 4y ago
There is intermittent fasting research that has shown that fasting after a few days can end up decreasing sleep time and increase all-day energy. My own fasting experience shows this increase in energy and reduction in sleep as getting better and showing more energy in arguments. Some say this would be making me angrier but it isn't. It is making me more forceful at the argument.
- jdkoeck 4y ago
  Or, you’re getting cranky because you’re hungry.
zvmaz 4y ago
> It's perfectly plausible to me that Ramadan-observing judges would better at judging while hungry while non-fasters would get worse. I don't know for judges, but I live in a dominantly religious society and I haven't noticed the virtues promised by observing strict religious fasting. In fact, people have been jailed by (probably fasting) judges for eating out of sight [1]. [1] https://www-lepoint-fr.translate.goog/monde/algerie-2-ans-de-prison-ferme-pour-un-non-jeuneur-lors-du-ramadan-21-10-2010-1252584_24.php?_x_tr_sl=auto&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en&_x_tr_pto=wapp https://www-lepoint-fr.translate.goog/monde/algerie-2-ans-de...
- reitanqild 4y ago
  If the laws says you should fast, it wouldn't be a virtue (edit, to be more precise: it would even be wrong) for a judge to not punish someone for breaking the law, unless the law gives the judges this liberty. Now I am not saying I agree with this law, I am Christian and according to how I and those I live with practice it, fasting is strictly individual, something I personally would even try to hide according to Jesus words in Matthew 6. 16, 17 and particularly 18: > «that thou appear not unto men to fast, but unto thy Father which is in secret: and thy Father, which seeth in secret, shall reward thee openly.» ‭‭Matthew‬ ‭6‬:‭18‬ ‭KJV‬‬ https://bible.com/bible/1/mat.6.18.KJV https://bible.com/bible/1/mat.6.18.KJV
  - LoveMortuus 4y ago
    That quote is quite interesting. I went to see if it's any different in other versions is bible, but it's always pretty much the same. Maybe expressing that you're fasting could be seen as bad. As if you're trying to boast about it, how you're better then others. Which made me that, if people that eat a vegan diet (or similar) kept it to themselves and not force it onto others, then perhaps there wouldn't exist the culture of "I ate a steak in front of vegans" or "I don't mind if you're vegan, but please let me eat in peace".
    - reitanqild 4y ago
      The first part Matthew 6, 1 - 21 has a lot more about doing what we do only with the expectation that God will see it, either it is alms, prayers or fast. Each of these might have value on their own, but God will only reward us if we do it for him instead of doing it to seek the glory of men.
stametseater 4y ago
Don't Ramadan fasters only fast for a few hours a day (e.g. during daylight?) Do they ever reach the point where they've skipped enough meals to no longer be hungry? TBQH skipping meals during the day and eating one big meal after dark doesn't seem terribly unlike the lifestyle of many nerdy bachelors. I'm sure I've done that many times myself without even thinking about it.
- wpietri 4y ago
  Per this, Ramadan fasting is 13-15 hours per day: https://www.brandeis.edu/spiritual-life/resources/guide-to-observances/ramadan.html https://www.brandeis.edu/spiritual-life/resources/guide-to-o... Since the non-fasting hours include a night of sleep, that schedule sounds pretty rigorous to me. Americans typically have an eating window of 12-15 hours, eating 5 times per day: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8705992/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8705992/
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
Zetice 4y ago
I dunno about getting better, but yeah the dropoff would be less pronounced.
- wpietri 4y ago
  My theory for why it might go the other way: to get good at fasting, I had to get better at noticing and leaning against feelings that might throw off my judgement. Hunger was the feeling at issue, but I think it's at least partly transferable to other feelings.
MisterBastahrd 4y ago
Ramadan fasts aren't really much as far as fasts go. They last only during daylight hours and you can stuff yourself silly in the mean time.
- fakedang 4y ago
  I just attended an Iftar a while back. The amount of gluttonous eating, wastage of food and lack of hygiene in cleaning up the area after the Iftar was astounding. It's of course no surprise then that most Muslim cities see the maximum amount of food wastage, and most Muslims the maximum weight gains during the month of Ramadan. Not to mention how overworking the ladies of the house in preparing the Iftar , while the men laze around, seems to be a common theme transcending across cultures. And I say these as a Muslim. In my opinion, water fasts make more sense than silly daylight fasting. My stomach seems to agree with that too - Ramadan always seems to exacerbate my auto-immune condition.
  - Zuiii 4y ago
    Gluttony and moderation depends on the local culture. I've personally witnessed iftars on both sides of the spectrum.

nashashmi 4y ago

There is intermittent fasting research that has shown that fasting after a few days can end up decreasing sleep time and increase all-day energy. My own fasting experience shows this increase in energy and reduction in sleep as getting better and showing more energy in arguments. Some say this would be making me angrier but it isn't. It is making me more forceful at the argument.

jdkoeck 4y ago
Or, you’re getting cranky because you’re hungry.

zvmaz 4y ago

> It's perfectly plausible to me that Ramadan-observing judges would better at judging while hungry while non-fasters would get worse. I don't know for judges, but I live in a dominantly religious society and I haven't noticed the virtues promised by observing strict religious fasting. In fact, people have been jailed by (probably fasting) judges for eating out of sight [1]. [1] https://www-lepoint-fr.translate.goog/monde/algerie-2-ans-de-prison-ferme-pour-un-non-jeuneur-lors-du-ramadan-21-10-2010-1252584_24.php?_x_tr_sl=auto&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en&_x_tr_pto=wapp https://www-lepoint-fr.translate.goog/monde/algerie-2-ans-de...

reitanqild 4y ago
If the laws says you should fast, it wouldn't be a virtue (edit, to be more precise: it would even be wrong) for a judge to not punish someone for breaking the law, unless the law gives the judges this liberty. Now I am not saying I agree with this law, I am Christian and according to how I and those I live with practice it, fasting is strictly individual, something I personally would even try to hide according to Jesus words in Matthew 6. 16, 17 and particularly 18: > «that thou appear not unto men to fast, but unto thy Father which is in secret: and thy Father, which seeth in secret, shall reward thee openly.» ‭‭Matthew‬ ‭6‬:‭18‬ ‭KJV‬‬ https://bible.com/bible/1/mat.6.18.KJV https://bible.com/bible/1/mat.6.18.KJV
- LoveMortuus 4y ago
  That quote is quite interesting. I went to see if it's any different in other versions is bible, but it's always pretty much the same. Maybe expressing that you're fasting could be seen as bad. As if you're trying to boast about it, how you're better then others. Which made me that, if people that eat a vegan diet (or similar) kept it to themselves and not force it onto others, then perhaps there wouldn't exist the culture of "I ate a steak in front of vegans" or "I don't mind if you're vegan, but please let me eat in peace".
  - reitanqild 4y ago
    The first part Matthew 6, 1 - 21 has a lot more about doing what we do only with the expectation that God will see it, either it is alms, prayers or fast. Each of these might have value on their own, but God will only reward us if we do it for him instead of doing it to seek the glory of men.

stametseater 4y ago

Don't Ramadan fasters only fast for a few hours a day (e.g. during daylight?) Do they ever reach the point where they've skipped enough meals to no longer be hungry? TBQH skipping meals during the day and eating one big meal after dark doesn't seem terribly unlike the lifestyle of many nerdy bachelors. I'm sure I've done that many times myself without even thinking about it.

wpietri 4y ago
Per this, Ramadan fasting is 13-15 hours per day: https://www.brandeis.edu/spiritual-life/resources/guide-to-observances/ramadan.html https://www.brandeis.edu/spiritual-life/resources/guide-to-o... Since the non-fasting hours include a night of sleep, that schedule sounds pretty rigorous to me. Americans typically have an eating window of 12-15 hours, eating 5 times per day: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8705992/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8705992/
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

Zetice 4y ago

I dunno about getting better, but yeah the dropoff would be less pronounced.

wpietri 4y ago
My theory for why it might go the other way: to get good at fasting, I had to get better at noticing and leaning against feelings that might throw off my judgement. Hunger was the feeling at issue, but I think it's at least partly transferable to other feelings.

MisterBastahrd 4y ago

Ramadan fasts aren't really much as far as fasts go. They last only during daylight hours and you can stuff yourself silly in the mean time.

fakedang 4y ago
I just attended an Iftar a while back. The amount of gluttonous eating, wastage of food and lack of hygiene in cleaning up the area after the Iftar was astounding. It's of course no surprise then that most Muslim cities see the maximum amount of food wastage, and most Muslims the maximum weight gains during the month of Ramadan. Not to mention how overworking the ladies of the house in preparing the Iftar , while the men laze around, seems to be a common theme transcending across cultures. And I say these as a Muslim. In my opinion, water fasts make more sense than silly daylight fasting. My stomach seems to agree with that too - Ramadan always seems to exacerbate my auto-immune condition.
- Zuiii 4y ago
  Gluttony and moderation depends on the local culture. I've personally witnessed iftars on both sides of the spectrum.