6 ms·

> You can do that without it being a job Yes, you can, but his argument is that most people don't -- and he's right.

namarie 4y ago
I think people are confusing having a job with work. Making things out of epoxy resin takes a lot of work and it's satisfying. If everyone had UBI people would absolutely still work a lot. It's just that they wouldn't have to have a job in order not to become destitute.
- neltnerb 4y ago
  Yeah, I am confused by the idea that not being forced to work to stay alive means your can't (or won't, whatever) find anything of worth to do with your life. Where did that unexamined assumption come from? Do they care about nothing other than standard employment based "work" and so never considered doing something other than staring at a wall when they're not doing it? Family. Friends. Volunteering. Gardening. Games. Hobbies. Learning to play music, or cook, or who knows... studying biochemistry and doing that because it's rewarding and easier to do in a setting with more people in the same place. Or starting a company if that's your thing, or call it an open-X project and build a community that doesn't require "work" to contribute. I'm so confused, why on Earth would the agency to choose be bad, it's so patronizing.
  - hackinthebochs 4y ago
    There's some serious class bias going on here. There is a certain segment of the population that will find productive work to do that give their life meaning if left to their own devices. There is another segment that absolutely will become blobs or worse (engage in mischief, anti-social behavior, etc). Those who have only ever known folks from the former category see only positives from a future without the necessity of work. Those who know folks from the latter category, well we fear such a future. Another strange class bias is that those from the (lets call it) "productive" class are absolutely convinced everyone is like them and if only given the opportunity they would be just as productive and fulfilled as they are. Some of us know better.
    - namarie 4y ago
      > There is a certain segment of the population that will find productive work to do that give their life meaning if left to their own devices. There is another segment that absolutely will become blobs or worse (engage in mischief, anti-social behavior, etc). Even if that is true, and I very much doubt that it is, a big chunk of the "productive" segment's work will be to help the other segment. People already do that a lot by volunteering. Imagine how much more people could psychologists, social workers, and others help if they don't have to worry about their own livelihoods?
      - hackinthebochs 4y ago
        I don't find that plausible. People volunteer to help those who naturally garner sympathy (poor, homeless, invalid, etc). There won't be much sympathy for those that don't have the disposition to self-actualize meaning like the "productive" class. On the other hand, those in the unproductive class won't want this kind of "help" either. What we need are new institutions to fill the role of providing social connection and meaning. Things that churches and clubs used to provide. But how to revive those things is its own issue.
        namarie 4y ago
        > People volunteer to help those who naturally garner sympathy (poor, homeless, invalid, etc). Not really? Plenty of people volunteer to help people in jail, for example. >On the other hand, those in the unproductive class won't want this kind of "help" either. People won't want help to find meaning in their lives? I find it hard to believe. Churches and clubs, as you also said, used to (and still do) help provide people with that as well, so I'm not sure you truly believe it either.
        hackinthebochs 4y ago
        >Not really? Plenty of people volunteer to help people in jail, for example. Of course there are always some number of people that find even unlikely targets sympathetic. But what you're talking about is some kind of widespread movement to help close the meaning gap when something like a third to half of the world is having a crisis of meaning. To have that kind of a movement needs a naturally very sympathetic target, like victims of police brutality. The movement to improve prison conditions is practically non-existent by comparison. I don't find it plausible that the non-self-actualizers will be similarly sympathetic. >Churches and clubs, as you also said, used to (and still do) help provide people with that as well I wasn't talking about "help" like how psychologists provide help to their clients. What I mean is an attractive gathering place where people naturally find connection and meaning. People don't want to be "helped", i.e. being made to feel like a charity case, they want to come by meaning and purpose naturally.
deleted 4y ago
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ilyt 4y ago
What if the reason is that when they come back from 8h job that also took 2h to even get there (coz they are not rich so they live far from it) they just don't have energy to ? I swear, it's like nobody here actually worked hard for any extended period in their life..

I think people are confusing having a job with work. Making things out of epoxy resin takes a lot of work and it's satisfying. If everyone had UBI people would absolutely still work a lot. It's just that they wouldn't have to have a job in order not to become destitute.

neltnerb 4y ago
Yeah, I am confused by the idea that not being forced to work to stay alive means your can't (or won't, whatever) find anything of worth to do with your life. Where did that unexamined assumption come from? Do they care about nothing other than standard employment based "work" and so never considered doing something other than staring at a wall when they're not doing it? Family. Friends. Volunteering. Gardening. Games. Hobbies. Learning to play music, or cook, or who knows... studying biochemistry and doing that because it's rewarding and easier to do in a setting with more people in the same place. Or starting a company if that's your thing, or call it an open-X project and build a community that doesn't require "work" to contribute. I'm so confused, why on Earth would the agency to choose be bad, it's so patronizing.
- hackinthebochs 4y ago
  There's some serious class bias going on here. There is a certain segment of the population that will find productive work to do that give their life meaning if left to their own devices. There is another segment that absolutely will become blobs or worse (engage in mischief, anti-social behavior, etc). Those who have only ever known folks from the former category see only positives from a future without the necessity of work. Those who know folks from the latter category, well we fear such a future. Another strange class bias is that those from the (lets call it) "productive" class are absolutely convinced everyone is like them and if only given the opportunity they would be just as productive and fulfilled as they are. Some of us know better.
  - namarie 4y ago
    > There is a certain segment of the population that will find productive work to do that give their life meaning if left to their own devices. There is another segment that absolutely will become blobs or worse (engage in mischief, anti-social behavior, etc). Even if that is true, and I very much doubt that it is, a big chunk of the "productive" segment's work will be to help the other segment. People already do that a lot by volunteering. Imagine how much more people could psychologists, social workers, and others help if they don't have to worry about their own livelihoods?
    - hackinthebochs 4y ago
      I don't find that plausible. People volunteer to help those who naturally garner sympathy (poor, homeless, invalid, etc). There won't be much sympathy for those that don't have the disposition to self-actualize meaning like the "productive" class. On the other hand, those in the unproductive class won't want this kind of "help" either. What we need are new institutions to fill the role of providing social connection and meaning. Things that churches and clubs used to provide. But how to revive those things is its own issue.
      - namarie 4y ago
        > People volunteer to help those who naturally garner sympathy (poor, homeless, invalid, etc). Not really? Plenty of people volunteer to help people in jail, for example. >On the other hand, those in the unproductive class won't want this kind of "help" either. People won't want help to find meaning in their lives? I find it hard to believe. Churches and clubs, as you also said, used to (and still do) help provide people with that as well, so I'm not sure you truly believe it either.
        hackinthebochs 4y ago
        >Not really? Plenty of people volunteer to help people in jail, for example. Of course there are always some number of people that find even unlikely targets sympathetic. But what you're talking about is some kind of widespread movement to help close the meaning gap when something like a third to half of the world is having a crisis of meaning. To have that kind of a movement needs a naturally very sympathetic target, like victims of police brutality. The movement to improve prison conditions is practically non-existent by comparison. I don't find it plausible that the non-self-actualizers will be similarly sympathetic. >Churches and clubs, as you also said, used to (and still do) help provide people with that as well I wasn't talking about "help" like how psychologists provide help to their clients. What I mean is an attractive gathering place where people naturally find connection and meaning. People don't want to be "helped", i.e. being made to feel like a charity case, they want to come by meaning and purpose naturally.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

ilyt 4y ago

What if the reason is that when they come back from 8h job that also took 2h to even get there (coz they are not rich so they live far from it) they just don't have energy to ? I swear, it's like nobody here actually worked hard for any extended period in their life..