5 ms·

Gendered uniforms lead to high dropout rates of teenage girls in sport: research

43 points by campuscodi 4y ago

tikkun 4y ago
While the result may still be true, this methodology seems quite useless to me. The methodology included: "In total, three-quarters of survey respondents replied ‘often’, ‘many’ and ‘sometimes’, when asked if participants ever saw girls stop playing sport because of sports kit or body image concerns." Part of the study involved asking people whether they thought other people quit sports because of sports kit or body image concerns.
- cm2187 4y ago
  * other people sometimes quit...
- tikkun 4y ago
  > This research used a mixed-methods approach, gaining both qualitative and quantitative data from an 18+ female-only online analytical survey gaining over 400 responses, followed-up with 8 semi-structured interviews with women aged 18–24. The choice of mixed-methods was first to gain the value of qualitative methods in attaining first-hand perspectives and multiple-truths. Secondly, gaining quantitative data were important to challenge the traditionally ‘uneasy’ relationship between feminist theory and quantitative social research (O’Leary, Citation1977). Cognisant of feminist researcher Williams’ (Citation2006, p. 456) view that ‘quantitative analysis is necessary if feminists are to intervene in important political debates’, I chose to involve quantitative data collection to aid the potential follow-up use of this study in policy design. This study implements feminist epistemological principles to support how I understand power, agency and the construction of knowledge, aligning with Rose’s (Citation1997) understanding that there is no single truth, only participants’ lived experiences. Further, a mixed-method approach encouraged the issue of school sport uniform to be explored through ‘a variety of lenses, which allows for multiple facets of the phenomenon to be revealed and understood’ (Baxter & Jack, Citation2008, p. 544). > Engaging with feminist epistemologies during data collection, I was aware that research of gender in society is also a form of ‘doing gender’ (McDowell, Citation1992, p. 400), therefore there must be caution not to essentialise the ‘voice’ of women as a group or disregard intersectionality (Davis, Citation1994). Investigating uniform experiences with an intersectional lens of race, religion, gender reassignment and sexual orientation is vitally important, but the limitations in my data mean these intersections could not be sufficiently investigated within the scope of this paper. I accept even detailed accounts are always only ‘partial knowledge’ (Elwood, Citation2010), but appreciate feminist qualitative research is about using ‘small stories to tell larger narratives’ (Jackson, Citation2011, p. 56). Listening to a range of experiences, we can better understand a meta-narrative of how school sport uniform impacts behaviour, identity formation and creates barriers to physical activity. > Guided by feminist epistemologies, as an interviewer I was conscious of power dynamics (Gluck & Patai, Citation1991), and cautious of any potential prompting of ‘correct’ or ‘dominant’ answers (Winchester & Rofe, Citation2010, p. 8). Brooks and Hesse-Biber (Citation2007, p. 14) indicate researcher emotions, subjectivities and situated knowledges cannot be ‘removed, bracketed or erased’, instead it is important to ‘reveal them’ (Brooks & Hesse-Biber, Citation2007). I acknowledge the influence of my experiences as a schoolgirl and now as a professional athlete, therefore avoid claiming a ‘false neutrality’ of knowledge (Rose, Citation1997, p. 306). Holding a reflexive feminist standpoint, I recognise how during this project I am also involved in a process of ‘self-discovery’ (England, Citation1994, p. 82). It is surprising, and a bit sad, for me to see how much of research is now taken up by things that don't look at all like research. This is from the paper.
  - olddustytrail 4y ago
    None of that looks unreasonable to me.
  - orbz 4y ago
    I don’t think it’s sad for someone undertaking a study of behavior to call out their own biases and to better account for how they structured the study so that later investigations could build upon or challenge aspects of that. It’s like being given the source code for a solution vs. getting the code and all of the dependencies and tooling used. Both provide the same information, but one is reproducible.
  - bigbillheck 4y ago
    > It is surprising, and a bit sad, for me to see how much of research is now taken up by things that don't look at all like research. Perhaps your biases are showing, this is just "these are the methods we used, and this is how we calibrated them", which is a critical part of any kind of research.
- 908B64B197 4y ago
  Sadly, that's most social science these days (not methodologically sound nor reproducible). But to draw these conclusions you'll need to understand a bit of math. Thankfully, bureaucrats are hard at work getting rid of advanced math classes and making sure this won't be taught at public schools [0] [1]. [0] https://reason.com/2021/05/04/california-math-framework-woke-equity-calculus/ https://reason.com/2021/05/04/california-math-framework-woke... [1] https://equitablemath.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2020/11/1_STRIDE1.pdf https://equitablemath.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2020/11...
RcouF1uZ4gsC 4y ago
As an example, take a look at the difference in attire between men’s and women’s volleyball and beach volleyball. Also men’s and women’s track.
- stakhanov 4y ago
  I don't understand why this has to be a gender issue, when there's such an obvious solution: Just don't have rules on uniforms at all: Prescribe team colors and let athletes pick whatever style of apparel they want. Body image issues apply to both genders. As someone who doesn't watch volleyball, my only association with men and volleyball is the volleyball scene in Top Gun, which, in my perception, is actually a great example of how men, too, are sometimes sexually objectified in the media. It's just that men being sexually objectified has different cultural connotations, which makes it less of an issue for men.
- peoplefromibiza 4y ago
  > men’s and women’s volleyball and beach volleyball As a former volleyball and beach volley professional player, albeit not at the highest levels: this is a false argument and often in bad faith. There have been drastic changes over the decades in the volleyball uniforms, especially for women. Sport gear evolved enormously, female players in the late 80s (the oldest I can remember watching in person) wore bodysuits similar to those gymnasts use and a t-shirt on that. Now they wear much longer shorts, like swimmers do. Men wore very short shorts, compared to the NBA style that they use now. The attire has always been fit to the body to avoid involuntary net invasions. There was a time when the players used baggy uniforms and it caused a lot of issues. Men now wear skintight sleeveless t-shirt (almost tank tops) because they cause less friction on the shoulders. They are also required to tuck them in, again, to avoid fouls. Nowadays the two uniforms are very similar, except the shorts, because men genitalia are different from women's, and, especially, if it's about people jumping up and down constantly, you do not want to show too clearly what's actually happening down there in television. Beach volley it's another story entirely, when the sport started on California beaches players dressed in the surfer's fashion, men and women alike. Soon women realized that having the literal sand in your unders during a game is quite uncomfortable and opted for more succinct swimsuits, where less sand could deposit, while men where stuck with their surf shorts, because, again, men in speedos jumping up and down and rolling in the sand, is not exactly viewer advisory safe. To put it in another way, players could go and wear whatever they like, but rest assured that uniforms are designed to maximize performances, not looks. There's a reason why full body swimsuits are banned from professional swimming competitions, and it's not because "someone in charge" wants to show more naked skin to the audience. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LZR_Racer https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LZR_Racer edit: grammar
lllobn 4y ago
[flagged]
BigCryo 4y ago
I totally believe this research I totally believe it
AgentOrange1234 4y ago
This was a big issue for my wife and her sister when they played high-school volleyball in the 90s. My daughter, a middle schooler, at least has the flexibility to choose her short length. It matters for sure.
c3534l 4y ago
Good research question, bad research.
dukeofdoom 4y ago
Something people don't consider is that studies often are cherry picked. Meaning if they don't got the result they want, they will discard the study and you will never hear about it. Drug studies can be fudged this way. They can do 100 studies, disregard 99, and report on the 1 that seemed most promising. Academic fudging is real. I think something like half academic papers can't be reproduced. Imagine the low standards for this kind of research. And even lower standards for news articles.
- explaininjs 4y ago
  No no, you have to understand: the Scientists said this. We simply must Trust the Science. What, are you anti-Science?
- d12bb 4y ago
  > Meaning if they don't got the result they want, they will discard the study and you will never hear about it. Drug studies can be fudged this way. You picked exactly that one field of science where this can't happen. At least in the EU (and US, according to Wikipedia), clinical trials have to be registered before conducting the actual research, so they can't be discarded if not successful.
  - Calavar 4y ago
    This is sort of true, sort of not. The primary investigator who registers a clinical trial is obligated to report the results back to the registry. But if they get a negative result, they are still going to have a hard time finding a decent scientific journal that's willing to publish it. And an unpublished result isn't going to have nearly the visibility that a published result does.
exabrial 4y ago
Flagged: worthless study. Look at the methodology.
- afrcnc 4y ago
  [flagged]
  - dang 4y ago
    Ouch. You can't post like this to HN, regardless of how wrong other people are or you feel they are. I've banned the account. If you don't want to be banned, you're welcome to email hn@ycombinator.com and give us reason to believe that you'll follow the rules in the future. They're here: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html.
photochemsyn 4y ago
So, how many swimmers were included in this survey, or was that category excluded?
explorer83 4y ago
1.) Are there any cases of girls asking their coach for a different style uniform and being denied? 2.) Is there evidence to show which percentage of players preferred the current fashion style compared to a different one? I know the sport is different but I was a swimmer and I had to wear speedos. Essentially water resistant underwear. I had teammates of every shape and size. Yeah sure some people got to be known for having larger bulges in the breast or groin areas but not in anyway that was hyper focused on or put down any other teammates. Also, you wear it in front of tons of people at competitons. If there was discomfort there, it was very much a personal decision and not the environment of the sport. Everyone had to learn to be comfortable in their own skin. And the hard work of the sport actually desensitized us to it. If the author doesn't like the current team uniforms, seems to me the option is to encourage multiple uniform types. I honestly don't see the value here in dragging it into some sort attack on society.
- jccalhoun 4y ago
  There was a team that was fined for wearing a different style of uniform https://www.cbc.ca/news/entertainment/women-athletes-uniform-changes-1.6122725 https://www.cbc.ca/news/entertainment/women-athletes-uniform...
  - explorer83 4y ago
    That was certainly a case where the rules definitely did not give them a choice and that was wrong. Glad they changed the rules. Here's a pro-bikini bottom article for why the bikini bottom is advantageous for beach volleyball: https://www.wjbf.com/ap-top-news/why-olympic-beach-volleyball-players-wear-bikinis/ https://www.wjbf.com/ap-top-news/why-olympic-beach-volleybal...
- Eddy_Viscosity2 4y ago
  I look at beach vollyball uniforms for men and women and it reminds of the armor used for female and male characters in games. Sometimes, like swimming, the uniform is the way it is because its best suited for the sport. But other times... its sexism.
- 4y ago
afrcnc 4y ago
[flagged]
amai 4y ago
See also https://www.reuters.com/lifestyle/sports/gymnastics-german-team-wears-full-body-suit-tokyo-qualifications-2021-07-25/ https://www.reuters.com/lifestyle/sports/gymnastics-german-t...

43 points by campuscodi 4y ago

While the result may still be true, this methodology seems quite useless to me. The methodology included: "In total, three-quarters of survey respondents replied ‘often’, ‘many’ and ‘sometimes’, when asked if participants ever saw girls stop playing sport because of sports kit or body image concerns." Part of the study involved asking people whether they thought other people quit sports because of sports kit or body image concerns.

cm2187 4y ago
* other people sometimes quit...
tikkun 4y ago
> This research used a mixed-methods approach, gaining both qualitative and quantitative data from an 18+ female-only online analytical survey gaining over 400 responses, followed-up with 8 semi-structured interviews with women aged 18–24. The choice of mixed-methods was first to gain the value of qualitative methods in attaining first-hand perspectives and multiple-truths. Secondly, gaining quantitative data were important to challenge the traditionally ‘uneasy’ relationship between feminist theory and quantitative social research (O’Leary, Citation1977). Cognisant of feminist researcher Williams’ (Citation2006, p. 456) view that ‘quantitative analysis is necessary if feminists are to intervene in important political debates’, I chose to involve quantitative data collection to aid the potential follow-up use of this study in policy design. This study implements feminist epistemological principles to support how I understand power, agency and the construction of knowledge, aligning with Rose’s (Citation1997) understanding that there is no single truth, only participants’ lived experiences. Further, a mixed-method approach encouraged the issue of school sport uniform to be explored through ‘a variety of lenses, which allows for multiple facets of the phenomenon to be revealed and understood’ (Baxter & Jack, Citation2008, p. 544). > Engaging with feminist epistemologies during data collection, I was aware that research of gender in society is also a form of ‘doing gender’ (McDowell, Citation1992, p. 400), therefore there must be caution not to essentialise the ‘voice’ of women as a group or disregard intersectionality (Davis, Citation1994). Investigating uniform experiences with an intersectional lens of race, religion, gender reassignment and sexual orientation is vitally important, but the limitations in my data mean these intersections could not be sufficiently investigated within the scope of this paper. I accept even detailed accounts are always only ‘partial knowledge’ (Elwood, Citation2010), but appreciate feminist qualitative research is about using ‘small stories to tell larger narratives’ (Jackson, Citation2011, p. 56). Listening to a range of experiences, we can better understand a meta-narrative of how school sport uniform impacts behaviour, identity formation and creates barriers to physical activity. > Guided by feminist epistemologies, as an interviewer I was conscious of power dynamics (Gluck & Patai, Citation1991), and cautious of any potential prompting of ‘correct’ or ‘dominant’ answers (Winchester & Rofe, Citation2010, p. 8). Brooks and Hesse-Biber (Citation2007, p. 14) indicate researcher emotions, subjectivities and situated knowledges cannot be ‘removed, bracketed or erased’, instead it is important to ‘reveal them’ (Brooks & Hesse-Biber, Citation2007). I acknowledge the influence of my experiences as a schoolgirl and now as a professional athlete, therefore avoid claiming a ‘false neutrality’ of knowledge (Rose, Citation1997, p. 306). Holding a reflexive feminist standpoint, I recognise how during this project I am also involved in a process of ‘self-discovery’ (England, Citation1994, p. 82). It is surprising, and a bit sad, for me to see how much of research is now taken up by things that don't look at all like research. This is from the paper.
- olddustytrail 4y ago
  None of that looks unreasonable to me.
- orbz 4y ago
  I don’t think it’s sad for someone undertaking a study of behavior to call out their own biases and to better account for how they structured the study so that later investigations could build upon or challenge aspects of that. It’s like being given the source code for a solution vs. getting the code and all of the dependencies and tooling used. Both provide the same information, but one is reproducible.
- bigbillheck 4y ago
  > It is surprising, and a bit sad, for me to see how much of research is now taken up by things that don't look at all like research. Perhaps your biases are showing, this is just "these are the methods we used, and this is how we calibrated them", which is a critical part of any kind of research.
908B64B197 4y ago
Sadly, that's most social science these days (not methodologically sound nor reproducible). But to draw these conclusions you'll need to understand a bit of math. Thankfully, bureaucrats are hard at work getting rid of advanced math classes and making sure this won't be taught at public schools [0] [1]. [0] https://reason.com/2021/05/04/california-math-framework-woke-equity-calculus/ https://reason.com/2021/05/04/california-math-framework-woke... [1] https://equitablemath.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2020/11/1_STRIDE1.pdf https://equitablemath.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2020/11...

RcouF1uZ4gsC 4y ago

As an example, take a look at the difference in attire between men’s and women’s volleyball and beach volleyball. Also men’s and women’s track.

stakhanov 4y ago
I don't understand why this has to be a gender issue, when there's such an obvious solution: Just don't have rules on uniforms at all: Prescribe team colors and let athletes pick whatever style of apparel they want. Body image issues apply to both genders. As someone who doesn't watch volleyball, my only association with men and volleyball is the volleyball scene in Top Gun, which, in my perception, is actually a great example of how men, too, are sometimes sexually objectified in the media. It's just that men being sexually objectified has different cultural connotations, which makes it less of an issue for men.
peoplefromibiza 4y ago
> men’s and women’s volleyball and beach volleyball As a former volleyball and beach volley professional player, albeit not at the highest levels: this is a false argument and often in bad faith. There have been drastic changes over the decades in the volleyball uniforms, especially for women. Sport gear evolved enormously, female players in the late 80s (the oldest I can remember watching in person) wore bodysuits similar to those gymnasts use and a t-shirt on that. Now they wear much longer shorts, like swimmers do. Men wore very short shorts, compared to the NBA style that they use now. The attire has always been fit to the body to avoid involuntary net invasions. There was a time when the players used baggy uniforms and it caused a lot of issues. Men now wear skintight sleeveless t-shirt (almost tank tops) because they cause less friction on the shoulders. They are also required to tuck them in, again, to avoid fouls. Nowadays the two uniforms are very similar, except the shorts, because men genitalia are different from women's, and, especially, if it's about people jumping up and down constantly, you do not want to show too clearly what's actually happening down there in television. Beach volley it's another story entirely, when the sport started on California beaches players dressed in the surfer's fashion, men and women alike. Soon women realized that having the literal sand in your unders during a game is quite uncomfortable and opted for more succinct swimsuits, where less sand could deposit, while men where stuck with their surf shorts, because, again, men in speedos jumping up and down and rolling in the sand, is not exactly viewer advisory safe. To put it in another way, players could go and wear whatever they like, but rest assured that uniforms are designed to maximize performances, not looks. There's a reason why full body swimsuits are banned from professional swimming competitions, and it's not because "someone in charge" wants to show more naked skin to the audience. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LZR_Racer https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LZR_Racer edit: grammar

lllobn 4y ago

[flagged]

BigCryo 4y ago

I totally believe this research I totally believe it

AgentOrange1234 4y ago

This was a big issue for my wife and her sister when they played high-school volleyball in the 90s. My daughter, a middle schooler, at least has the flexibility to choose her short length. It matters for sure.

c3534l 4y ago

Good research question, bad research.

dukeofdoom 4y ago

Something people don't consider is that studies often are cherry picked. Meaning if they don't got the result they want, they will discard the study and you will never hear about it. Drug studies can be fudged this way. They can do 100 studies, disregard 99, and report on the 1 that seemed most promising. Academic fudging is real. I think something like half academic papers can't be reproduced. Imagine the low standards for this kind of research. And even lower standards for news articles.

explaininjs 4y ago
No no, you have to understand: the Scientists said this. We simply must Trust the Science. What, are you anti-Science?
d12bb 4y ago
> Meaning if they don't got the result they want, they will discard the study and you will never hear about it. Drug studies can be fudged this way. You picked exactly that one field of science where this can't happen. At least in the EU (and US, according to Wikipedia), clinical trials have to be registered before conducting the actual research, so they can't be discarded if not successful.
- Calavar 4y ago
  This is sort of true, sort of not. The primary investigator who registers a clinical trial is obligated to report the results back to the registry. But if they get a negative result, they are still going to have a hard time finding a decent scientific journal that's willing to publish it. And an unpublished result isn't going to have nearly the visibility that a published result does.

exabrial 4y ago

Flagged: worthless study. Look at the methodology.

afrcnc 4y ago
[flagged]
- dang 4y ago
  Ouch. You can't post like this to HN, regardless of how wrong other people are or you feel they are. I've banned the account. If you don't want to be banned, you're welcome to email hn@ycombinator.com and give us reason to believe that you'll follow the rules in the future. They're here: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html.

photochemsyn 4y ago

So, how many swimmers were included in this survey, or was that category excluded?

explorer83 4y ago

1.) Are there any cases of girls asking their coach for a different style uniform and being denied? 2.) Is there evidence to show which percentage of players preferred the current fashion style compared to a different one? I know the sport is different but I was a swimmer and I had to wear speedos. Essentially water resistant underwear. I had teammates of every shape and size. Yeah sure some people got to be known for having larger bulges in the breast or groin areas but not in anyway that was hyper focused on or put down any other teammates. Also, you wear it in front of tons of people at competitons. If there was discomfort there, it was very much a personal decision and not the environment of the sport. Everyone had to learn to be comfortable in their own skin. And the hard work of the sport actually desensitized us to it. If the author doesn't like the current team uniforms, seems to me the option is to encourage multiple uniform types. I honestly don't see the value here in dragging it into some sort attack on society.

jccalhoun 4y ago
There was a team that was fined for wearing a different style of uniform https://www.cbc.ca/news/entertainment/women-athletes-uniform-changes-1.6122725 https://www.cbc.ca/news/entertainment/women-athletes-uniform...
- explorer83 4y ago
  That was certainly a case where the rules definitely did not give them a choice and that was wrong. Glad they changed the rules. Here's a pro-bikini bottom article for why the bikini bottom is advantageous for beach volleyball: https://www.wjbf.com/ap-top-news/why-olympic-beach-volleyball-players-wear-bikinis/ https://www.wjbf.com/ap-top-news/why-olympic-beach-volleybal...
Eddy_Viscosity2 4y ago
I look at beach vollyball uniforms for men and women and it reminds of the armor used for female and male characters in games. Sometimes, like swimming, the uniform is the way it is because its best suited for the sport. But other times... its sexism.
4y ago

afrcnc 4y ago

[flagged]

amai 4y ago

See also https://www.reuters.com/lifestyle/sports/gymnastics-german-team-wears-full-body-suit-tokyo-qualifications-2021-07-25/ https://www.reuters.com/lifestyle/sports/gymnastics-german-t...