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> Python community today houses the worst programmers I know to exist. The quality of community-produced code was and is still degrading fast. I think, Python o

by ilyt 4y ago

> Python community today houses the worst programmers I know to exist. The quality of community-produced code was and is still degrading fast. I think, Python overtook PHP on this metric a while ago, we just didn't notice it. JS topped that metric long time ago; But it is a curse of every language that gets popular as new developer's first language

devonkim 4y ago
A long time ago I remember people saying that JavaScript is the most popular language that programmers don’t learn. A language with a sufficiently low bar for mass adoption by non-programmers in theory should be useful without needing to know the ins and outs. Yet, I would argue still that the world’s most popular programming language isn’t even either JS or Python or PHP - it’s Excel. When we constrain a programming operating environment and language elegantly it’s quite impressive what is accomplished. We as programmers tend to forget oftentimes that computers and all that stuff is just a means to an end.
- crabbone 4y ago
  Can you write extensions / modules for VBA used in Excel? -- It's an honest question. I simply haven't used any Microsoft product in a very long time... If not, it's probably not a good delivery mechanism, even if very popular.
  - devonkim 4y ago
    There’s various macro extensions and plugins available including .NET but these options tend to have a long history of horrible security problems because they are general purpose languages. While possible to crash spreadsheets with simple formulas they’re not going to steal your local credentials off disk probably.
MrJohz 4y ago
I'm not entirely sure that's the case. I agree, Javascript is very popular as a first language and an introduction to the world of programming, especially with all of the frontend bootcamp-type courses. But in most of these courses embed a lot of healthy "best practices". Sure, there's often a sense of cargo cult appeal rather than a full explanation, but, for example, most new developers seem to at least have a basic knowledge of git and version control (even if it's often treated as a set of mystical incantations that must be performed before programming). The tooling also helps a lot here, for example by installing dependencies locally and saving a lock file to prevent automagical updates. Meanwhile, a lot of people who write Python are not necessarily developers, they are scientists or data analysis who just want to turn their data into conclusions. So things like version control are kept largely to one side as unnecessary complexity, and dependency management is often global, ad-hoc, and prone to breaking. Even things like Jupyter - which by itself can be a great tool - tend to push less experienced developers towards spaghetti code and difficult to reproduce results. In fairness, I think it's difficult to compare these situations and make hard conclusions about which one is better. Ultimately, in both ecosystems, there are some fantastic developers producing excellent tools, frameworks, and libraries. The problem, to the extent that it exists, lies in the low barrier to entry, and the accessibility of these languages, and that's something that's hard to complain too hard about!
crabbone 4y ago
I remember JavaScript from the time it wasn't considered a language anyone would write by hand (RAD controls? Something similar generated by MSVS?). It was supposed to be generated because most people involved with it looked at it with disgust. This tradition, sort of, continues to this day with the most prominent member of the family being TypeScript. So, I'd say, JavaScript community is more aware of the awfulness of their language, and have created an ecosystem where they constantly make efforts to not to write in JavaScript (of course there's also the opposite camp of people who really want to write in JavaScript).

by ilyt 4y ago

devonkim 4y ago

A long time ago I remember people saying that JavaScript is the most popular language that programmers don’t learn. A language with a sufficiently low bar for mass adoption by non-programmers in theory should be useful without needing to know the ins and outs. Yet, I would argue still that the world’s most popular programming language isn’t even either JS or Python or PHP - it’s Excel. When we constrain a programming operating environment and language elegantly it’s quite impressive what is accomplished. We as programmers tend to forget oftentimes that computers and all that stuff is just a means to an end.

crabbone 4y ago
Can you write extensions / modules for VBA used in Excel? -- It's an honest question. I simply haven't used any Microsoft product in a very long time... If not, it's probably not a good delivery mechanism, even if very popular.
- devonkim 4y ago
  There’s various macro extensions and plugins available including .NET but these options tend to have a long history of horrible security problems because they are general purpose languages. While possible to crash spreadsheets with simple formulas they’re not going to steal your local credentials off disk probably.

MrJohz 4y ago

I'm not entirely sure that's the case. I agree, Javascript is very popular as a first language and an introduction to the world of programming, especially with all of the frontend bootcamp-type courses. But in most of these courses embed a lot of healthy "best practices". Sure, there's often a sense of cargo cult appeal rather than a full explanation, but, for example, most new developers seem to at least have a basic knowledge of git and version control (even if it's often treated as a set of mystical incantations that must be performed before programming). The tooling also helps a lot here, for example by installing dependencies locally and saving a lock file to prevent automagical updates. Meanwhile, a lot of people who write Python are not necessarily developers, they are scientists or data analysis who just want to turn their data into conclusions. So things like version control are kept largely to one side as unnecessary complexity, and dependency management is often global, ad-hoc, and prone to breaking. Even things like Jupyter - which by itself can be a great tool - tend to push less experienced developers towards spaghetti code and difficult to reproduce results. In fairness, I think it's difficult to compare these situations and make hard conclusions about which one is better. Ultimately, in both ecosystems, there are some fantastic developers producing excellent tools, frameworks, and libraries. The problem, to the extent that it exists, lies in the low barrier to entry, and the accessibility of these languages, and that's something that's hard to complain too hard about!

crabbone 4y ago

I remember JavaScript from the time it wasn't considered a language anyone would write by hand (RAD controls? Something similar generated by MSVS?). It was supposed to be generated because most people involved with it looked at it with disgust. This tradition, sort of, continues to this day with the most prominent member of the family being TypeScript. So, I'd say, JavaScript community is more aware of the awfulness of their language, and have created an ecosystem where they constantly make efforts to not to write in JavaScript (of course there's also the opposite camp of people who really want to write in JavaScript).