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It's hard to do harm with meditation. It's a bit like saying everybody should exercise. Yes, there might be a person on earth who shouldn't exercise, although I

It's hard to do harm with meditation. It's a bit like saying everybody should exercise. Yes, there might be a person on earth who shouldn't exercise, although I find that hard to imagine, but the statement is still valid. Similarly, it's hard to imagine someone who wouldn't benefit from meditation. Just a few minutes is beneficial.

mach1ne 4y ago
Meditation and exercise are not comparable. The latter is something our bodies were designed by our evolution to do. The former is something we ourselves developed in certain cultural environments. The actual difference in confidence of benefit between these two is enormous.
- thevagrant 4y ago
  I'd argue that exercise (for some) can be a form of meditation and achieve similar effects. Running for a long time will result in a focus on your breath and each stride and step.
2muchcoffeeman 4y ago
I heard once that meditation is an inherently introspective practice. It brings your focus towards yourself and being present in the moment. Hence if you are narcissistic, the last thing you want is to draw more focus to yourself And meditate.
- z3c0 4y ago
  To loosely quote "McMindfulness", it's possible to be mindful about shitty things. The Western form of mindfulness has been largely washed of the Buddhist dogma that it's rooted in. This is because it was heavily coopted by corporations as a way for people to "meditate" towards tolerating a crappy work environment or coworkers.
  - 2muchcoffeeman 4y ago
    Sure. I’m only reporting one thing that I heard. I’d rather read more ideas of why it’s wrong rather than be down voted.
    - z3c0 4y ago
      I was agreeing with you - I'm not sure why people wouldn't downvote you, other than not liking to hear about the ugly side of mindfulness.
ajb 4y ago
Firstly, even if mediation was completely harmless in itself, there is such a thing as opportunity cost. Spending a year unsuccessfully thing to get something from mediation is a year when they could have been trying lots of other things. (You could try other things at the same time, but most medical professionals actively discourage that)
- ZeroSolstice 4y ago
  Isn't this a fallacy in itself? There is opportunity cost in everything. How would you know a year of meditation wasn't working out without actually doing the meditation?
  - ajb 4y ago
    If a year didn't work, how would you know that 2 years want going to work? or 5 years? The problem isn't that you have to try it to see if it's works. The problem is that psych professionals a) have a poor grasp of decision theory and b) have an incentive to optimise their time and not the patients.
    - ZeroSolstice 4y ago
      > If a year didn't work, how would you know that 2 years want going to work? or 5 years? The time frame is not relevant as people differ in their abilities, as you have noted. Typically there would be some measurable change that helps determine how "you" are feeling overall in the process, not how other people felt at the indicated time frame. After all the goal is for "you" to feel better, which is subjective to everyone. > The problem isn't that you have to try it to see if it's works. I'm not sure I see how this would work any other way than trying it. A person is only trying the recommendation not perfecting it. > The problem is that psych professionals a) have a poor grasp of decision theory and b) have an incentive to optimise their time and not the patients. I'm not directly following how this relates to the original comment stating that recommending something for someone was toxic. Much like all professions some people are better at their job than others, sometimes you find the right fit, sometimes you have to keep going. We all have to walk our own path, no one can walk it for us. *"you" is in the objective sense, not directed at you specifically.
Mezzie 4y ago
There is a population who doesn't necessarily benefit, but we're pretty small: Those of us who have severe dissociative problems can sometimes not do well with meditation - we're basically so used to ignoring our mental and physical cues that training us to do so more isn't a good idea. It essentially reaffirms some toxic priors and heuristics we've developed. Also can really fuck with you if you have issues with things like derealization/depersonalization because you're contributing to that internal wall by detaching yourself.
Godel_unicode 4y ago
You might want to read the Wilson et al paper on mindfulness significantly increasing susceptibility to false memories, that’s quite the downside.
yuuuuyu 4y ago
> It's hard to do harm with meditation It's hard to do harm with taking a one hour walk every day. It's hard to do harm doing yoga for an hour a day. It's hard to do harm with cooking a really healthy meal every day. It's hard to do harm watching a self-improvement video on youtube every day. It's hard to do harm writing down self-reflective thoughts for half an hour before going to bed every night. ... No, if you compare it with sitting on the sofa staring into the wall, then no, it's likely not going to harm. But that's the wrong comparison. You need to compare with what you instead do not do with your limited time. And then doing all those things can do a lot of (relative) harm. It's easy to do harm with claiming a certain thing is hard to do harm with.

mach1ne 4y ago

Meditation and exercise are not comparable. The latter is something our bodies were designed by our evolution to do. The former is something we ourselves developed in certain cultural environments. The actual difference in confidence of benefit between these two is enormous.

thevagrant 4y ago
I'd argue that exercise (for some) can be a form of meditation and achieve similar effects. Running for a long time will result in a focus on your breath and each stride and step.

2muchcoffeeman 4y ago

I heard once that meditation is an inherently introspective practice. It brings your focus towards yourself and being present in the moment. Hence if you are narcissistic, the last thing you want is to draw more focus to yourself And meditate.

z3c0 4y ago
To loosely quote "McMindfulness", it's possible to be mindful about shitty things. The Western form of mindfulness has been largely washed of the Buddhist dogma that it's rooted in. This is because it was heavily coopted by corporations as a way for people to "meditate" towards tolerating a crappy work environment or coworkers.
- 2muchcoffeeman 4y ago
  Sure. I’m only reporting one thing that I heard. I’d rather read more ideas of why it’s wrong rather than be down voted.
  - z3c0 4y ago
    I was agreeing with you - I'm not sure why people wouldn't downvote you, other than not liking to hear about the ugly side of mindfulness.

ajb 4y ago

Firstly, even if mediation was completely harmless in itself, there is such a thing as opportunity cost. Spending a year unsuccessfully thing to get something from mediation is a year when they could have been trying lots of other things. (You could try other things at the same time, but most medical professionals actively discourage that)

ZeroSolstice 4y ago
Isn't this a fallacy in itself? There is opportunity cost in everything. How would you know a year of meditation wasn't working out without actually doing the meditation?
- ajb 4y ago
  If a year didn't work, how would you know that 2 years want going to work? or 5 years? The problem isn't that you have to try it to see if it's works. The problem is that psych professionals a) have a poor grasp of decision theory and b) have an incentive to optimise their time and not the patients.
  - ZeroSolstice 4y ago
    > If a year didn't work, how would you know that 2 years want going to work? or 5 years? The time frame is not relevant as people differ in their abilities, as you have noted. Typically there would be some measurable change that helps determine how "you" are feeling overall in the process, not how other people felt at the indicated time frame. After all the goal is for "you" to feel better, which is subjective to everyone. > The problem isn't that you have to try it to see if it's works. I'm not sure I see how this would work any other way than trying it. A person is only trying the recommendation not perfecting it. > The problem is that psych professionals a) have a poor grasp of decision theory and b) have an incentive to optimise their time and not the patients. I'm not directly following how this relates to the original comment stating that recommending something for someone was toxic. Much like all professions some people are better at their job than others, sometimes you find the right fit, sometimes you have to keep going. We all have to walk our own path, no one can walk it for us. *"you" is in the objective sense, not directed at you specifically.

Mezzie 4y ago

There is a population who doesn't necessarily benefit, but we're pretty small: Those of us who have severe dissociative problems can sometimes not do well with meditation - we're basically so used to ignoring our mental and physical cues that training us to do so more isn't a good idea. It essentially reaffirms some toxic priors and heuristics we've developed. Also can really fuck with you if you have issues with things like derealization/depersonalization because you're contributing to that internal wall by detaching yourself.

Godel_unicode 4y ago

You might want to read the Wilson et al paper on mindfulness significantly increasing susceptibility to false memories, that’s quite the downside.

yuuuuyu 4y ago

> It's hard to do harm with meditation It's hard to do harm with taking a one hour walk every day. It's hard to do harm doing yoga for an hour a day. It's hard to do harm with cooking a really healthy meal every day. It's hard to do harm watching a self-improvement video on youtube every day. It's hard to do harm writing down self-reflective thoughts for half an hour before going to bed every night. ... No, if you compare it with sitting on the sofa staring into the wall, then no, it's likely not going to harm. But that's the wrong comparison. You need to compare with what you instead do not do with your limited time. And then doing all those things can do a lot of (relative) harm. It's easy to do harm with claiming a certain thing is hard to do harm with.