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Works for me -> everybody should do it ...is an incredibly common fallacy. I don't say that to dismiss your experience, as I'm sure the things helped you and y

by ajb 4y ago

Works for me -> everybody should do it ...is an incredibly common fallacy. I don't say that to dismiss your experience, as I'm sure the things helped you and you are genuinely trying to help others- and that these things can help lots of people. My issue is solely with the word 'everybody' Here is why it is toxic: for people who those things don't work, or for whom the proposed solution is beyond their ability, it's a short step to blaming them for their problems and writing them off. Which is a very common reaction to mental health problems, even among mental health professionals.

ramraj07 4y ago
Furthermore, my observations among my colleagues is that the folks who do this meditation among other things are also not really successful at it either, for the most part. A great example is the Parks and Rec clip where Chris and Ron go for meditation [1] - quite an exaggeration to be sure but it is very conflicting that you actively try to not think. In the show the running line is that for someone who tries to do everything right Chris doesn’t really attain inner peace or even true good health. I myself have never meditated much, but have had my dad who used to disappear in to the forest for a few weeks at a time (he has done that all his life, something he learned from his father etc, as part of the culture of a traditional medicinal healer). He meditates. To clarify, he meditates ALL the time. In a loud train. While my mom watches loud annoying soap operas. While lying down. Not on a schedule he puts in the calendar. To him that was the default state of mind. In some ways not very dissimilar to what Ron Swanson does in the clip. Maybe some day I’ll try that out, but it sure ain’t gonna be by popping headphones with an app playing white noise. It’s gotta be a fundamental change in what you do in every step of life. Having said that, it looks like even forced meditation on a schedule still helps a bit. Just don’t expect to be a long term miracle cure. It’s safe to say anything Tim Ferris says works in helping him calm down is likely not a real solution lol. 1. https://youtu.be/7lHARAJFSgw https://youtu.be/7lHARAJFSgw
- swah 4y ago
  Do you feel its a benefit in his life?
  - ramraj07 4y ago
    Unclear TBH. He was a remarkable individual in his younger days but as he reached retirement wisdom did seem to part ways in an unfair way and all his calmness didn’t help slow down that decline. I continue to try and get what lessons I can from his life and others, and for me the lesson is not to meditate but just slow down, not to hurry on anything and just do things with purpose.
episteme 4y ago
It's hard to do harm with meditation. It's a bit like saying everybody should exercise. Yes, there might be a person on earth who shouldn't exercise, although I find that hard to imagine, but the statement is still valid. Similarly, it's hard to imagine someone who wouldn't benefit from meditation. Just a few minutes is beneficial.
- mach1ne 4y ago
  Meditation and exercise are not comparable. The latter is something our bodies were designed by our evolution to do. The former is something we ourselves developed in certain cultural environments. The actual difference in confidence of benefit between these two is enormous.
  - thevagrant 4y ago
    I'd argue that exercise (for some) can be a form of meditation and achieve similar effects. Running for a long time will result in a focus on your breath and each stride and step.
- 2muchcoffeeman 4y ago
  I heard once that meditation is an inherently introspective practice. It brings your focus towards yourself and being present in the moment. Hence if you are narcissistic, the last thing you want is to draw more focus to yourself And meditate.
  - z3c0 4y ago
    To loosely quote "McMindfulness", it's possible to be mindful about shitty things. The Western form of mindfulness has been largely washed of the Buddhist dogma that it's rooted in. This is because it was heavily coopted by corporations as a way for people to "meditate" towards tolerating a crappy work environment or coworkers.
    - 2muchcoffeeman 4y ago
      Sure. I’m only reporting one thing that I heard. I’d rather read more ideas of why it’s wrong rather than be down voted.
ZeroSolstice 4y ago
This entire site is a recommendation engine. What the person stated above was a recommendation, much like advice, people don't have to do anything with it. Your example of something being toxic because not everyone succeed as well as others or do not poses an innate ability in something is very difficult to conceptualize for few reasons. 1. There are plenty of people who excel at items better than others. Athletes, researchers, hackers, plumbers, electricians, basically anyone. 2. Our entire human evolution has been taking chances on things that might not succeed. 3. This is literally what YC/Hacker News is and was formed from, i.e Things posted or commented on are not given with the intention that it will work for everyone. Its all an experiment. To loosely quote Eleanor Roosevelt[1]: > "No one can make you feel inferior without your consent." [1] https://quoteinvestigator.com/2011/03/30/not-inferior/ https://quoteinvestigator.com/2011/03/30/not-inferior/
- ajb 4y ago
  This is all true. But my point is true as well. HN is recommendation engine, but it's kind of targeted to people who have the time and space to do a lot of experiments, because they are young and without responsibilities. People who have mental health issues often have limited energy, so need to consider carefully the amount of time they should invest in each possible thing that might help them.
  - ZeroSolstice 4y ago
    I believe your first statement makes a broad assumption about the targeted audience. >People who have mental health issues often have limited energy, so need to consider carefully the amount of time they should invest in each possible thing that might help them. This can apply to everyone not just people with mental health issues. The onus is placed on the reader here since we have established that HN is just an recommendation engine. Everyone is has a responsibility to do their own due diligence, especially from comments made on the Internet.
- gessha 4y ago
  One way to reconcile the two viewpoints is to find the conditions in which the recommendation is useful and instead of saying: “everyone can benefit from this therefore everyone should do it” To “People who are X and Y can benefit from this and should try it” Kind of like the sanity checks/boundary checks we put in the beginning of a function before we start processing data.
Sakos 4y ago
If it doesn't work for you, then you should work on finding out why not and what does work. It's also why I definitely recommend therapy. But most people just accept that they can't change or improve and that's that. Being judged for recommending meditation is weird. I bounced off of meditation too. I don't actively practice it nowadays. I think at a certain point in my life, it wasn't helpful at all because of where I was psychologically and emotionally. It was way too painful. However, I learned from that experience, and I do think it was a valuable experience that led me to CBT, and tried different things. I find your comment far more toxic and encouraging of doing nothing. How about you not blame people? I don't. Everybody is on their own journey and that's okay. If somebody feels meditation doesn't work for them, that's fine. Maybe something else will. However, I do feel that it's a universal skill that can benefit everybody. If somebody is unwilling or unable to train it, that's totally fine. I won't force anything on anybody or judge them for it. As an individual, it's up to you to make your own choices and decide what's best for you. All I can do is share my experience and my advice.
- ajb 4y ago
  I'm happy that it works for you. This has been a very controversial comment, but a lot of people who disagree are reading things into it that I did not say. All I'm saying is, people are different, and something working for you doesn't mean it will work for everyone. You don't need to let your enthusiasm for something lead you into making categorical statements which gaslight those for whom it doesn't work. I guess there is something badly worded about my comment which appears to insult you, which was not my intention, so I apologise for that.
  - ZeroSolstice 4y ago
    As a bit of insight, the first response you had referred to using the word 'everybody' as toxic. Further, it appears you have doubled down and condemned what has worked for Sakos and their shared enthusiasm for a topic, as psychological manipulation[1] to undermine random people that 'might' read their posting. I think that if you are getting the feeling that responders are coming across as adversarial or misinterpreting what you are presenting, which happens with text, its a good time to reflect on things. Hopefully this helps. [1] https://www.dictionary.com/browse/gaslighting https://www.dictionary.com/browse/gaslighting

by ajb 4y ago

ramraj07 4y ago

Furthermore, my observations among my colleagues is that the folks who do this meditation among other things are also not really successful at it either, for the most part. A great example is the Parks and Rec clip where Chris and Ron go for meditation [1] - quite an exaggeration to be sure but it is very conflicting that you actively try to not think. In the show the running line is that for someone who tries to do everything right Chris doesn’t really attain inner peace or even true good health. I myself have never meditated much, but have had my dad who used to disappear in to the forest for a few weeks at a time (he has done that all his life, something he learned from his father etc, as part of the culture of a traditional medicinal healer). He meditates. To clarify, he meditates ALL the time. In a loud train. While my mom watches loud annoying soap operas. While lying down. Not on a schedule he puts in the calendar. To him that was the default state of mind. In some ways not very dissimilar to what Ron Swanson does in the clip. Maybe some day I’ll try that out, but it sure ain’t gonna be by popping headphones with an app playing white noise. It’s gotta be a fundamental change in what you do in every step of life. Having said that, it looks like even forced meditation on a schedule still helps a bit. Just don’t expect to be a long term miracle cure. It’s safe to say anything Tim Ferris says works in helping him calm down is likely not a real solution lol. 1. https://youtu.be/7lHARAJFSgw https://youtu.be/7lHARAJFSgw

swah 4y ago
Do you feel its a benefit in his life?
- ramraj07 4y ago
  Unclear TBH. He was a remarkable individual in his younger days but as he reached retirement wisdom did seem to part ways in an unfair way and all his calmness didn’t help slow down that decline. I continue to try and get what lessons I can from his life and others, and for me the lesson is not to meditate but just slow down, not to hurry on anything and just do things with purpose.

episteme 4y ago

It's hard to do harm with meditation. It's a bit like saying everybody should exercise. Yes, there might be a person on earth who shouldn't exercise, although I find that hard to imagine, but the statement is still valid. Similarly, it's hard to imagine someone who wouldn't benefit from meditation. Just a few minutes is beneficial.

mach1ne 4y ago
Meditation and exercise are not comparable. The latter is something our bodies were designed by our evolution to do. The former is something we ourselves developed in certain cultural environments. The actual difference in confidence of benefit between these two is enormous.
- thevagrant 4y ago
  I'd argue that exercise (for some) can be a form of meditation and achieve similar effects. Running for a long time will result in a focus on your breath and each stride and step.
2muchcoffeeman 4y ago
I heard once that meditation is an inherently introspective practice. It brings your focus towards yourself and being present in the moment. Hence if you are narcissistic, the last thing you want is to draw more focus to yourself And meditate.
- z3c0 4y ago
  To loosely quote "McMindfulness", it's possible to be mindful about shitty things. The Western form of mindfulness has been largely washed of the Buddhist dogma that it's rooted in. This is because it was heavily coopted by corporations as a way for people to "meditate" towards tolerating a crappy work environment or coworkers.
  - 2muchcoffeeman 4y ago
    Sure. I’m only reporting one thing that I heard. I’d rather read more ideas of why it’s wrong rather than be down voted.

ZeroSolstice 4y ago

This entire site is a recommendation engine. What the person stated above was a recommendation, much like advice, people don't have to do anything with it. Your example of something being toxic because not everyone succeed as well as others or do not poses an innate ability in something is very difficult to conceptualize for few reasons. 1. There are plenty of people who excel at items better than others. Athletes, researchers, hackers, plumbers, electricians, basically anyone. 2. Our entire human evolution has been taking chances on things that might not succeed. 3. This is literally what YC/Hacker News is and was formed from, i.e Things posted or commented on are not given with the intention that it will work for everyone. Its all an experiment. To loosely quote Eleanor Roosevelt[1]: > "No one can make you feel inferior without your consent." [1] https://quoteinvestigator.com/2011/03/30/not-inferior/ https://quoteinvestigator.com/2011/03/30/not-inferior/

ajb 4y ago
This is all true. But my point is true as well. HN is recommendation engine, but it's kind of targeted to people who have the time and space to do a lot of experiments, because they are young and without responsibilities. People who have mental health issues often have limited energy, so need to consider carefully the amount of time they should invest in each possible thing that might help them.
- ZeroSolstice 4y ago
  I believe your first statement makes a broad assumption about the targeted audience. >People who have mental health issues often have limited energy, so need to consider carefully the amount of time they should invest in each possible thing that might help them. This can apply to everyone not just people with mental health issues. The onus is placed on the reader here since we have established that HN is just an recommendation engine. Everyone is has a responsibility to do their own due diligence, especially from comments made on the Internet.
gessha 4y ago
One way to reconcile the two viewpoints is to find the conditions in which the recommendation is useful and instead of saying: “everyone can benefit from this therefore everyone should do it” To “People who are X and Y can benefit from this and should try it” Kind of like the sanity checks/boundary checks we put in the beginning of a function before we start processing data.

Sakos 4y ago

If it doesn't work for you, then you should work on finding out why not and what does work. It's also why I definitely recommend therapy. But most people just accept that they can't change or improve and that's that. Being judged for recommending meditation is weird. I bounced off of meditation too. I don't actively practice it nowadays. I think at a certain point in my life, it wasn't helpful at all because of where I was psychologically and emotionally. It was way too painful. However, I learned from that experience, and I do think it was a valuable experience that led me to CBT, and tried different things. I find your comment far more toxic and encouraging of doing nothing. How about you not blame people? I don't. Everybody is on their own journey and that's okay. If somebody feels meditation doesn't work for them, that's fine. Maybe something else will. However, I do feel that it's a universal skill that can benefit everybody. If somebody is unwilling or unable to train it, that's totally fine. I won't force anything on anybody or judge them for it. As an individual, it's up to you to make your own choices and decide what's best for you. All I can do is share my experience and my advice.

ajb 4y ago
I'm happy that it works for you. This has been a very controversial comment, but a lot of people who disagree are reading things into it that I did not say. All I'm saying is, people are different, and something working for you doesn't mean it will work for everyone. You don't need to let your enthusiasm for something lead you into making categorical statements which gaslight those for whom it doesn't work. I guess there is something badly worded about my comment which appears to insult you, which was not my intention, so I apologise for that.
- ZeroSolstice 4y ago
  As a bit of insight, the first response you had referred to using the word 'everybody' as toxic. Further, it appears you have doubled down and condemned what has worked for Sakos and their shared enthusiasm for a topic, as psychological manipulation[1] to undermine random people that 'might' read their posting. I think that if you are getting the feeling that responders are coming across as adversarial or misinterpreting what you are presenting, which happens with text, its a good time to reflect on things. Hopefully this helps. [1] https://www.dictionary.com/browse/gaslighting https://www.dictionary.com/browse/gaslighting