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Modern physics has turned pretty hard against determinism and towards a probabilistic view.
by labster 4y ago
Modern physics has turned pretty hard against determinism and towards a probabilistic view.
- kevin_thibedeau 4y agoThat's just a convenient way to model something that isn't truly understood. That doesn't rule out determinism.
- dmonitor 4y agodeterminism is no longer the most accurate model, though
- Der_Einzige 4y agoBells theorem implies fundamental randomness at the heart of the universe.
- stametseater 4y agoThe probabilistic indeterminacy of quantum physics is scarcely a refuge for free will. You may as well say a computer has free will because you gave it a Geiger counter.
- brutusborn 4y agoI think I understand what you are saying but I don’t think that’s a good analogy (good chance I’m misinterpreting though) The Geiger counter is measuring a phenomena that is random, but producing a ‘click’ once that random phenomena occurs is fundamentally deterministic. People who believe indeterminacy supports free will do so because they believe their will gets to ‘select’ a certain path, so the ‘randomness’ comes from their free will. So a computer with a Geiger counter doesn’t have free will because although it is measuring a random process, it doesn’t affect the process as it does so.
- stametseater 4y agoI'm saying that quantum physics basically gives you an RNG, and you cannot build meaningful free will in the sense that people believe in by adding an RNG to an otherwise deterministic toolbox. People who do as you describe are appealing not to quantum physics itself but rather to the mystic of quantum physics.. quantum woo. 'Quantum' is a word they throw around to give a veneer of science to their assertions, but there is nothing in the science of quantum physics that supports the notion of free will being expressed through the control of stochastic quantum phenomena like radioactive decay. People who appeal to quantum physics in this way are like people who appeal to magnetism to explain why crystals and pyramids have healing properties; there is nothing in the physics of magnetism that supports such claims, but magnets are mysterious enough to laypeople that "because magnets" is enough to impress the credulous. They're using words associated with science to imbue their ideas with some of science's credibility.
- brutusborn 4y agoI agree that people take a little knowledge and run with it (myself included). But doesn’t the mere existence of random processes in quantum theory suggest that there is a route for non-deterministic action (I.e. free will). So although quantum randomness cannot currently be linked to consciousness, there’s no fundamental idea in quantum theory that precludes humans affecting the “randomness” via some yet unidentified mechanism. To simplify, the fundamental question of human free will is “why does it feel like we can freely make decisions?” And quantum theory can provide an ‘out’ that it feels this way because our decisions change the results of otherwise seemingly stochastic processes. If the universe isn’t choosing the outcome deterministically, maybe our consciousness is.
- stametseater 4y agoQuantum physics doesn't offer a mechanism for free will, the best it offers is a "gap" for you to squeeze your god into: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_of_the_gaps https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_of_the_gaps
- cypherpunks01 4y agoBingo. The discovery of quantum uncertainty / randomness does not add weight to determinism nor free will. It seems to take market share from both, if you ask me.
- Der_Einzige 4y agoIt's definitely evidence against determinism, even if it's not evidence for free will.
- wizofaus 4y agoAt the quantum level perhaps, but my understanding is that quantum level indeterminism isn't likely to play much of a role in the functioning of the human brain. Even if it were, while it might seem to theoretically at least allow for free will, it doesn't help explain what it really means at the physical level. Personally I accept that the only sensible explanation is that it's an illusion, but it's a sufficiently powerful illusion that's essentially indistinguishable from what genuine free will might actually be, and hence there's little point worrying about whether it genuinely exists. I do worry a little what it might mean for our criminal justice system if gradually everyone were to accept free will was just an illusion though.