6 ms·

Since we already have the 2nd Amendment then it should be obvious to you that you are mistaken. With that in mind, what are your more reasoned thoughts about h

Since we already have the 2nd Amendment then it should be obvious to you that you are mistaken. With that in mind, what are your more reasoned thoughts about how to solve the problems in San Francisco? Deep thinking is encouraged here as I don't live there, have never been there, probably will never visit, but still would like to understand cause, effect, and solutions for things that people who live there see as problems. I too would see many of these things as problems if they were occurring in my neighborhood.

rationalist 4y ago
I don't think 2A is the answer here, but I just wanted to point out: "having" something in the Constitution doesn't mean anything when local politicians, courts, and police restrict it.
- hgsgm 4y ago
  2A is Federal Law, so local government can't restrict it. If you think local government has been violating it for years, then it doesn't mean what you think it means, according to the current very-right-wing Supreme Court, which has recently struck down unconstitutional gun laws.
  - josephcsible 4y ago
    > local government can't restrict it Local government isn't supposed to be able to restrict it. But in practice, it often takes a really long time before unconstitutional laws get declared as such by a court.
  - rationalist 4y ago
    The Supreme Court doesn't just go through the books of places and strike-through laws they don't agree with. The law has to be used against someone and it has to be appealed through multiple levels and then the Supreme Court has to be petitioned to review it. It takes a lot of money and time, and many people are just going to settle in the lower courts. Places have had unconstitutional laws on the books for a long time before someone had a case that made it to the Supreme Court. For every case that you do hear about, there are cases that don't make it for whatever reason and you don't hear about. I am definitely not a legal scholar, so if any facts in my comment are wrong please let me know.
    - doodlebugging 4y ago
      I believe you are correct and you have identified part of what is broken or frequently abused in our political system. Unfortunately there are only two parties and they seem to focus on all the things that piss off the other guys so much that they are each more than willing to advocate for and attempt to pass new laws that clearly are unconstitutional knowing that if they can maintain control of enough of the process that those laws can be in force for a long time and may bolster their position over that term. Citizens need to be more informed about the whole legislative process, their rights and their responsibilities etc. Voting should be mandatory and more than two parties should be in the process. Somehow we have to make this work or we are all pawns.
- doodlebugging 4y ago
  Kinda reminds you of how the other amendments are treated doesn't it? Seems to depend a lot on what's socially okay in your region whether it is speech, privacy, religion, etc.
  - notch898b 4y ago
    [flagged]
    - doodlebugging 4y ago
      I think this is related to the way firearms are defined in the code. An incomplete collection of unfinished parts is no big deal whether it is part of a firearm or a component of ammunition. It is when they are assembled and ready for use that the relevant laws come into play. I may be wrong and that's okay since I am not an expert on any of this. I just hoped to spark a conversation.
x3n0ph3n3 4y ago
> Since we already have the 2nd Amendment then it should be obvious to you that you are mistaken. The 2A is still being infringed across California. SF continues to not grant conceal carry licenses and open carry is illegal.
- hgsgm 4y ago
  Have there been lawsuits challenging those laws?
  - x3n0ph3n3 4y ago
    There are several active lawsuits challenging the constitutionality of many of California's current gun laws. With the recent Supreme Court ruling, they are making excellent progress forward, but are still often stuck in a process hell driven by the politics of the 9th Circuit Court. Details on the most recent ruling of Boland vs Bonta from a couple weeks ago: https://www.reddit.com/r/CAguns/comments/11wrknm/preliminary_injunction_granted_in_boland_v_bonta/ https://www.reddit.com/r/CAguns/comments/11wrknm/preliminary... You may also see a rather lengthy detail of the state of firearms carry in CA: https://www.reddit.com/r/CAguns/comments/vlnrrw/the_rcaguns_firearms_carry_megathread/ https://www.reddit.com/r/CAguns/comments/vlnrrw/the_rcaguns_...
- doodlebugging 4y ago
  I see no reason why concealed carry should be legal anyway. Open carry should be the norm if you are going to allow individuals to bear arms anytime, anywhere as some 2A supporters argue. Of course I am against open carry too since we already pay for city, state, and federal law enforcement operations that should allow all of us to go about our business without fear of being robbed, assaulted, or murdered. Law enforcement though has been militarized and has become a tool of fascists after a couple of generations of careful fear-mongering designed to turn us against each other and thus build a case, first in one area and then expanding nationwide, for everyone to go around armed all the time increasing the likelihood of unstable personalities using their firearms in crimes of passion that otherwise would not have occurred. Open carry and concealed carry create the environment for an increase in firearm crimes while at the same time failing to serve as a deterrent in the hands of untrained citizens.
infamouscow 4y ago
Here's an idea: what if SF's DA applied the same prosecutorial discretion to anything that looks remotely like self-defense for 30 days. Simply as an experiment to see if there would be a precipitous decrease in crime.
- hgsgm 4y ago
  A drop in crime, after ignoring all the shooting murders?
  - s1artibartfast 4y ago
    A classic purge scenario. Crime might indeed be lower after.
pieix 4y ago
The 2nd Amendment was in practice not honored in California until June 2022 when the Supreme Court ruled in New York State Rifle & Pistol Association v. Bruen. SF still didn't issue its first concealed carry permit until January 2023.
- doodlebugging 4y ago
  I didn't know this about concealed carry. Thanks for that. Concealed carry or open carry is not the answer though. It clearly doesn't work as a deterrent in places where it is available as crimes still occur in broad daylight against victims who one could assume have a high probability of being armed. In fact, it is more common now that one would be shot in a road rage incident by some coward with a gun than it has been in the past.[0] [0]https://www.nytimes.com/2022/04/12/us/road-rage-shootings-guns-texas.html https://www.nytimes.com/2022/04/12/us/road-rage-shootings-gu...

rationalist 4y ago

I don't think 2A is the answer here, but I just wanted to point out: "having" something in the Constitution doesn't mean anything when local politicians, courts, and police restrict it.

hgsgm 4y ago
2A is Federal Law, so local government can't restrict it. If you think local government has been violating it for years, then it doesn't mean what you think it means, according to the current very-right-wing Supreme Court, which has recently struck down unconstitutional gun laws.
- josephcsible 4y ago
  > local government can't restrict it Local government isn't supposed to be able to restrict it. But in practice, it often takes a really long time before unconstitutional laws get declared as such by a court.
- rationalist 4y ago
  The Supreme Court doesn't just go through the books of places and strike-through laws they don't agree with. The law has to be used against someone and it has to be appealed through multiple levels and then the Supreme Court has to be petitioned to review it. It takes a lot of money and time, and many people are just going to settle in the lower courts. Places have had unconstitutional laws on the books for a long time before someone had a case that made it to the Supreme Court. For every case that you do hear about, there are cases that don't make it for whatever reason and you don't hear about. I am definitely not a legal scholar, so if any facts in my comment are wrong please let me know.
  - doodlebugging 4y ago
    I believe you are correct and you have identified part of what is broken or frequently abused in our political system. Unfortunately there are only two parties and they seem to focus on all the things that piss off the other guys so much that they are each more than willing to advocate for and attempt to pass new laws that clearly are unconstitutional knowing that if they can maintain control of enough of the process that those laws can be in force for a long time and may bolster their position over that term. Citizens need to be more informed about the whole legislative process, their rights and their responsibilities etc. Voting should be mandatory and more than two parties should be in the process. Somehow we have to make this work or we are all pawns.
doodlebugging 4y ago
Kinda reminds you of how the other amendments are treated doesn't it? Seems to depend a lot on what's socially okay in your region whether it is speech, privacy, religion, etc.
- notch898b 4y ago
  [flagged]
  - doodlebugging 4y ago
    I think this is related to the way firearms are defined in the code. An incomplete collection of unfinished parts is no big deal whether it is part of a firearm or a component of ammunition. It is when they are assembled and ready for use that the relevant laws come into play. I may be wrong and that's okay since I am not an expert on any of this. I just hoped to spark a conversation.

x3n0ph3n3 4y ago

> Since we already have the 2nd Amendment then it should be obvious to you that you are mistaken. The 2A is still being infringed across California. SF continues to not grant conceal carry licenses and open carry is illegal.

hgsgm 4y ago
Have there been lawsuits challenging those laws?
- x3n0ph3n3 4y ago
  There are several active lawsuits challenging the constitutionality of many of California's current gun laws. With the recent Supreme Court ruling, they are making excellent progress forward, but are still often stuck in a process hell driven by the politics of the 9th Circuit Court. Details on the most recent ruling of Boland vs Bonta from a couple weeks ago: https://www.reddit.com/r/CAguns/comments/11wrknm/preliminary_injunction_granted_in_boland_v_bonta/ https://www.reddit.com/r/CAguns/comments/11wrknm/preliminary... You may also see a rather lengthy detail of the state of firearms carry in CA: https://www.reddit.com/r/CAguns/comments/vlnrrw/the_rcaguns_firearms_carry_megathread/ https://www.reddit.com/r/CAguns/comments/vlnrrw/the_rcaguns_...
doodlebugging 4y ago
I see no reason why concealed carry should be legal anyway. Open carry should be the norm if you are going to allow individuals to bear arms anytime, anywhere as some 2A supporters argue. Of course I am against open carry too since we already pay for city, state, and federal law enforcement operations that should allow all of us to go about our business without fear of being robbed, assaulted, or murdered. Law enforcement though has been militarized and has become a tool of fascists after a couple of generations of careful fear-mongering designed to turn us against each other and thus build a case, first in one area and then expanding nationwide, for everyone to go around armed all the time increasing the likelihood of unstable personalities using their firearms in crimes of passion that otherwise would not have occurred. Open carry and concealed carry create the environment for an increase in firearm crimes while at the same time failing to serve as a deterrent in the hands of untrained citizens.

infamouscow 4y ago

Here's an idea: what if SF's DA applied the same prosecutorial discretion to anything that looks remotely like self-defense for 30 days. Simply as an experiment to see if there would be a precipitous decrease in crime.

hgsgm 4y ago
A drop in crime, after ignoring all the shooting murders?
- s1artibartfast 4y ago
  A classic purge scenario. Crime might indeed be lower after.

pieix 4y ago

The 2nd Amendment was in practice not honored in California until June 2022 when the Supreme Court ruled in New York State Rifle & Pistol Association v. Bruen. SF still didn't issue its first concealed carry permit until January 2023.

doodlebugging 4y ago
I didn't know this about concealed carry. Thanks for that. Concealed carry or open carry is not the answer though. It clearly doesn't work as a deterrent in places where it is available as crimes still occur in broad daylight against victims who one could assume have a high probability of being armed. In fact, it is more common now that one would be shot in a road rage incident by some coward with a gun than it has been in the past.[0] [0]https://www.nytimes.com/2022/04/12/us/road-rage-shootings-guns-texas.html https://www.nytimes.com/2022/04/12/us/road-rage-shootings-gu...