5 ms·

This is an area where we must acknowledge that one's "values" frame of reference is inextricably linked to how you decide this question. Yes, we definitely are

by xp84 4y ago

This is an area where we must acknowledge that one's "values" frame of reference is inextricably linked to how you decide this question. Yes, we definitely are sacrificing some of everyone's bodily autonomy because we think it's less bad than the consequences of putting no limits on it. Caffeine, Alcohol, Cigarettes, Cannabis, Cocaine, Meth, Heroin, Fentanyl, biological weapons and on some parallel track: BB gun, .22, Glock, AR-15, automatic rifle, RPG, cannon, tank, land mines, nuclear warhead If there's even one thing on the above list that you'd not want to be automatically OK for every person in the world to own and operate (at least on a "until you hurt someone" basis), then you're putting an arbitrary limit which values "preventing likely harms to others" over absolute autonomy. Even if you'd allow the warhead I don't think either of us can be said to be 'right' or 'wrong' -- just that it's most productive if we acknowledge which "paramount value" (perfect freedom vs. reduction in predictable harms to innocent others) we are prioritizing, and acknowledge that we have to make a significant sacrifice in the other one in order to do that.

kevviiinn 4y ago
Are you genuinely suggesting that cannabis is more harmful than alcohol Not to mention, do people use biological weapons recreationally? That's news to me
- anonymouskimmer 4y ago
  > Are you genuinely suggesting that cannabis is more harmful than alcohol If consumed in the same quantity, it might be. > do people use biological weapons recreationally? That's news to me Botox is a neurotoxin originally derived from a bacterium. And various pesticides are regulated. Nicotine actually is a naturally occurring pesticide, though these days BigAg companies produce far more potent "Neonicotinoids" for killing insects.
  - kevviiinn 4y ago
    Please explain the mechanism by which cannabis causes DNA damage when consumed in the same quantity as alcohol. When you match recreational dose, it doesn't. There is a slight possibility of free radicals in smoke causing DNA damage but that is incredibly minor compared to alcohol and can be avoided with different methods of consumption. You can't avoid the DNA damage of alcohol at any dose or method of consumption
    - anonymouskimmer 4y ago
      The word I was responding to was "harmful", with no further specification. I stand by what I wrote, and don't feel the need to try to explain a point I wasn't making.
      - kevviiinn 4y ago
        So then what is the mechanism of harm, if you can't state what the mechanism is then what is the reason to believe the statement? Anyone can just claim something is "harmful" but if they can't really state how then why is there any reason to believe the statement
        anonymouskimmer 4y ago
        https://med.stanford.edu/news/all-news/2022/04/marijuana-heart-disease.html https://med.stanford.edu/news/all-news/2022/04/marijuana-hea... > People who use marijuana have an increased risk of heart disease and heart attack, according to a large study led by researchers at Stanford Medicine. > The study also showed that the psychoactive component of the drug, known as THC, causes inflammation in endothelial cells that line the interior of blood vessels, as well as atherosclerosis in laboratory mice. > The inflammation and atherosclerosis can be blocked by a small molecule called genistein that occurs naturally in soy and fava beans, the researchers found. Because genistein has limited brain penetration, it doesn’t inhibit THC’s ability to stimulate appetite, dull pain and tamp down nausea — characteristics vital to medicinal marijuana users. ...> I expect we will begin to see a rise in heart attacks and strokes in the coming years. If you go the Fava bean route, know that it can cause illness in some people. Soy is safer, and purified genistein (available as a supplement) probably safer still.
- xp84 4y ago
  Nah, I started out putting things in order from most legally allowed to most harshly punished/seen although it looks like I did organize the opioids more via badness. I definitely think cannabis is less harmful than alcohol.
tomcam 4y ago
I mean if you offered me the full auto gun or a tank I’d not be so impolite as to refuse
frant-hartm 4y ago
The line is relatively clear to me - is it easy or not to harm others? With opioids not really, not easier than with rat poison. With guns it's super easy, so they should be regulated. I would not limit your freedom which allows you to hurt yourself, but I would limit your freedom which allows you to hurt me, because that would limit my freedom. Worry about yourself and your loved ones, leave my wellbeing to me.

by xp84 4y ago

kevviiinn 4y ago

Are you genuinely suggesting that cannabis is more harmful than alcohol Not to mention, do people use biological weapons recreationally? That's news to me

anonymouskimmer 4y ago
> Are you genuinely suggesting that cannabis is more harmful than alcohol If consumed in the same quantity, it might be. > do people use biological weapons recreationally? That's news to me Botox is a neurotoxin originally derived from a bacterium. And various pesticides are regulated. Nicotine actually is a naturally occurring pesticide, though these days BigAg companies produce far more potent "Neonicotinoids" for killing insects.
- kevviiinn 4y ago
  Please explain the mechanism by which cannabis causes DNA damage when consumed in the same quantity as alcohol. When you match recreational dose, it doesn't. There is a slight possibility of free radicals in smoke causing DNA damage but that is incredibly minor compared to alcohol and can be avoided with different methods of consumption. You can't avoid the DNA damage of alcohol at any dose or method of consumption
  - anonymouskimmer 4y ago
    The word I was responding to was "harmful", with no further specification. I stand by what I wrote, and don't feel the need to try to explain a point I wasn't making.
    - kevviiinn 4y ago
      So then what is the mechanism of harm, if you can't state what the mechanism is then what is the reason to believe the statement? Anyone can just claim something is "harmful" but if they can't really state how then why is there any reason to believe the statement
      - anonymouskimmer 4y ago
        https://med.stanford.edu/news/all-news/2022/04/marijuana-heart-disease.html https://med.stanford.edu/news/all-news/2022/04/marijuana-hea... > People who use marijuana have an increased risk of heart disease and heart attack, according to a large study led by researchers at Stanford Medicine. > The study also showed that the psychoactive component of the drug, known as THC, causes inflammation in endothelial cells that line the interior of blood vessels, as well as atherosclerosis in laboratory mice. > The inflammation and atherosclerosis can be blocked by a small molecule called genistein that occurs naturally in soy and fava beans, the researchers found. Because genistein has limited brain penetration, it doesn’t inhibit THC’s ability to stimulate appetite, dull pain and tamp down nausea — characteristics vital to medicinal marijuana users. ...> I expect we will begin to see a rise in heart attacks and strokes in the coming years. If you go the Fava bean route, know that it can cause illness in some people. Soy is safer, and purified genistein (available as a supplement) probably safer still.
xp84 4y ago
Nah, I started out putting things in order from most legally allowed to most harshly punished/seen although it looks like I did organize the opioids more via badness. I definitely think cannabis is less harmful than alcohol.

tomcam 4y ago

I mean if you offered me the full auto gun or a tank I’d not be so impolite as to refuse

frant-hartm 4y ago

The line is relatively clear to me - is it easy or not to harm others? With opioids not really, not easier than with rat poison. With guns it's super easy, so they should be regulated. I would not limit your freedom which allows you to hurt yourself, but I would limit your freedom which allows you to hurt me, because that would limit my freedom. Worry about yourself and your loved ones, leave my wellbeing to me.