7 ms·

So much for "states rights", I suppose. I wonder how long abortion is going to remain an issue?

by cocacola1 4y ago

MisterBastahrd 4y ago
As long as right-wingers hate what other people do with their own bodies, probably.
- notyourwork 4y ago
  Beyond tiring.
- all2 4y ago
  For the right wingers it is a moral issue that has a few facets - a child in the womb is distinct from its mother (according to some, as soon as new DNA starts being produced) - the only difference between a grown human and one in the womb is time (and their resulting growth and development) - to stop a fertilized egg from attaching to the uterine wall is tantamount to murder - to abort said child at any point in time during pregnancy is murder This places the conservative in an existentially horrifying position; every post conception contraceptive is murder. Those who use them are murderers. I'd say hate is probably the right word to use. There is a second thread underlying the vehement opposition to abortion, and that is the disdain for free love. They see it as extra-marital sex, fornication, adultery, and ultimately an affront to their God's commands and design for his humans are supposed to act. Their opposition is an existential one. To abandon their position would be to condemn millions more to die.
  - voisin 4y ago
    > Their opposition is an existential one. To abandon their position would be to condemn millions more to die. I know this is how they like to frame it but we don’t see them feeling the same existential angst about things like wearing a mask to prevent the spread of a viral disease around people who might be immune compromised and die as a result. Then it becomes “the government has no right over my body”. It is exhausting how contradictory conservative positions are.
    - cudgy 4y ago
      Left wing has contradictory positions as well, in fact most people do, especially when their position is being defined by those that oppose their position.
      - voisin 4y ago
        Could you give some examples?
        rayiner 4y ago
        [flagged]
        kaba0 4y ago
        So, 911 was just a bunch of people as well? Because that’s less than the amount of people who died every single day at the height of COVID.
        rayiner 4y ago
        9/11 was deliberate killing.
        kaba0 4y ago
        The same way not wearing a fking mask/vaccinating oneself is, when we live in a society with many people whose immune system is weakened.
        rayiner 4y ago
        Doing something that statistically increases risk to others is not deliberate killing. See: every philosophy book.
        4y ago
  - josephcsible 4y ago
    > post conception contraceptive Unless someone invented a time machine and didn't tell me, there's no such thing as a post conception contraceptive.
  - kaba0 4y ago
    Strangely enough they don’t give a damn about any human not in a womb, like hunger, universal healthcare, helping those in need, school shooter victims, etc. It’s only murder when its someone else’s body and decision.
    - RestlessMind 4y ago
      > they don’t give a damn about any human not in a womb, like hunger, universal healthcare, helping those in need, school shooter victims, etc. As an independent who has voted for D positions more often than for R's, I say that's a false characterization. A lot of conservative positions give a damn about say, hunger or healthcare. They just don't give a damn about the policies proposed by the left. Often times, I agree with them when I peer under the hood. Classic example is climate change and green new deal, which had a bunch of stuff totally unrelated and unneeded for climate change. Same with poverty trap[0] - a lot of conservatives argue that our welfare programs are actually hurting the poor and there are good logical arguments backing them. Another example, look at housing affordability - conservative approach (Texas) beats progressive approach (California) by miles. [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Negro_Family:_The_Case_For_National_Action https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Negro_Family:_The_Case_For...
      - MisterBastahrd 4y ago
        Texas has a lot more available housing because Texas is full of people who are looking to get rich off of land investments made by their ancestors. Very few conservatives give a damn about hunger or healthcare. Their solutions are almost invariably non-governmental entities tied to coercive religious indoctrination. Anyone can go on youtube and pull up hundreds of instances of conservative lawmakers arguing against school breakfast and lunch programs for poor children, as if "personal responsibility" has fuck-all to do with the ability of a CHILD to concentrate in class on an empty stomach. Hell, Milton Friedman believed that public schools should be abolished as an indirect method to resegregate the school system.
  - lazyasciiart 4y ago
    No, in fact, right wingers are pretty consistently unwilling to actually treat women who have abortions as murderers. They don't support the death penalty for them, they consistently agree that it doesn't count if the pregnancy is a result of rape or incest, and (male or female) they consistently participate in it themselves. Say what you want about right wingers: if they actually were all so morally bankrupt that they would commit murder at the rates they commit abortion, we'd have fallen into civil war long ago.
dawnerd 4y ago
Abortion isn’t the issue. The issue is people trying to control what other people do with their own bodies.
- nomel 4y ago
  Then, by definition, it's an issue.
- Beaver117 4y ago
  No it seems like an abortion issue to me. You don't see the same advocates for drug use, prostitution, or assisted suicide
  - lazyasciiart 4y ago
    You kind of do, actually.
- HopenHeyHi 4y ago
  Doesn't the government/strangers have a right to control your body sometimes? Like forcing you to wear a mask or get vaccinated?
  - voisin 4y ago
    Well this is the debate. Where does that right stem from? What are its limits?
    - HopenHeyHi 4y ago
      Yeah, it used to be the debate. Now it is "ban what I want or else you are bad" and "I can't believe you banned something I care about!" :/
- fzvqq 4y ago
  [flagged]
t-writescode 4y ago
For as long as: * people try to get rid of it * it's gotten rid of, people wanting to get it back
cirrus3 4y ago
Until a bunch of old dudes die off.
- krapp 4y ago
  You underestimate how many right-wing, pro-life young dudes are out there.
  - rayiner 4y ago
    Don’t forget all the pro life young women: https://news.gallup.com/poll/235646/men-women-generally-hold-similar-abortion-attitudes.aspx https://news.gallup.com/poll/235646/men-women-generally-hold.... About 20% of both men and women have opposed abortion in all circumstances going back to 1979. Also, on the right, it’s women that drive the anti-abortion movement: https://www.npr.org/2019/06/08/730898408/republican-women-and-abortion https://www.npr.org/2019/06/08/730898408/republican-women-an... (“But what's interesting, Scott, is that Republican women express more opposition to abortion than Republican men - 68% of Republican women call themselves pro-life compared to 59% of their male counterparts. Also, Republican women were the only group in this poll to oppose exceptions for abortion in cases of rape and incest. A majority opposed that, while most Republican men do support those exceptions.”)
- rayiner 4y ago
  A “bunch of old dudes” were the ones who decided Roe. Abortion views haven’t really changed since then: https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2011/07/01/137079714/poll-generation-y-supports-gay-marriage-but-is-divided-on-abortion https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2011/07/01/1370797... (“But a new poll out today finds that abortion is not one of the issues on which the children are more liberal than their parents.”). There was a bump in pro-choice sentiment after Dobbs but we will see if that is durable. The public opinion on abortion has been remarkably stable over decades: https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/fact-sheet/public-opinion-on-abortion/ https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/fact-sheet/public-opini...
- HopenHeyHi 4y ago
  Ah, well see, by that time you'll have a new batch. :P
threeseed 4y ago
There's an opinion piece from NYT [1] about this. That 64% of Americans support some form of abortion but 63% of Republicans do not. And so states that are purple or red-leaning will see a no-tolerance abortion position being a requirement to make it through the Republican primary. But that long term it will erode the popularity of Republicans across the country. [1] https://www.nytimes.com/2023/04/07/opinion/abortion-rights-wisconsin-elections-republicans.html https://www.nytimes.com/2023/04/07/opinion/abortion-rights-w...
- akvadrako 4y ago
  You're missing the nuance here. A large majority (over 80%) of Americans support some restrictions on abortion too, which is not something you often see Democrat politicians advocating. It's basically a Democrat primary litmus test that one supports few or no abortion restrictions, which won't help them win general elections.
  - RestlessMind 4y ago
    > which is not something you often see Democrat politicians advocating. Correct because that is not an election issue yet. A smart move by republicans would be to propose a 15-week limit with exceptions for certain cases, similar to what Graham was proposing. And herein lies the asymmetry - democrats were defending abortion until Dobbs so they naturally had to moderate their tone. republicans were trying to repeal it and hence their tone was aggressively anti-abortion. Now that the tables are turned, it is far easier to paint republicans as extremist just by citing their recent statements or recent votes (some were totally idiotic, like banning abortion in all cases without any exceptions). It will be a painful few years until republicans restructure their coalition and tone down their messaging.

So much for "states rights", I suppose. I wonder how long abortion is going to remain an issue?

MisterBastahrd 4y ago

As long as right-wingers hate what other people do with their own bodies, probably.

notyourwork 4y ago
Beyond tiring.
all2 4y ago
For the right wingers it is a moral issue that has a few facets - a child in the womb is distinct from its mother (according to some, as soon as new DNA starts being produced) - the only difference between a grown human and one in the womb is time (and their resulting growth and development) - to stop a fertilized egg from attaching to the uterine wall is tantamount to murder - to abort said child at any point in time during pregnancy is murder This places the conservative in an existentially horrifying position; every post conception contraceptive is murder. Those who use them are murderers. I'd say hate is probably the right word to use. There is a second thread underlying the vehement opposition to abortion, and that is the disdain for free love. They see it as extra-marital sex, fornication, adultery, and ultimately an affront to their God's commands and design for his humans are supposed to act. Their opposition is an existential one. To abandon their position would be to condemn millions more to die.
- voisin 4y ago
  > Their opposition is an existential one. To abandon their position would be to condemn millions more to die. I know this is how they like to frame it but we don’t see them feeling the same existential angst about things like wearing a mask to prevent the spread of a viral disease around people who might be immune compromised and die as a result. Then it becomes “the government has no right over my body”. It is exhausting how contradictory conservative positions are.
  - cudgy 4y ago
    Left wing has contradictory positions as well, in fact most people do, especially when their position is being defined by those that oppose their position.
    - voisin 4y ago
      Could you give some examples?
      - rayiner 4y ago
        [flagged]
        kaba0 4y ago
        So, 911 was just a bunch of people as well? Because that’s less than the amount of people who died every single day at the height of COVID.
        rayiner 4y ago
        9/11 was deliberate killing.
        kaba0 4y ago
        The same way not wearing a fking mask/vaccinating oneself is, when we live in a society with many people whose immune system is weakened.
        rayiner 4y ago
        Doing something that statistically increases risk to others is not deliberate killing. See: every philosophy book.
        4y ago
- josephcsible 4y ago
  > post conception contraceptive Unless someone invented a time machine and didn't tell me, there's no such thing as a post conception contraceptive.
- kaba0 4y ago
  Strangely enough they don’t give a damn about any human not in a womb, like hunger, universal healthcare, helping those in need, school shooter victims, etc. It’s only murder when its someone else’s body and decision.
  - RestlessMind 4y ago
    > they don’t give a damn about any human not in a womb, like hunger, universal healthcare, helping those in need, school shooter victims, etc. As an independent who has voted for D positions more often than for R's, I say that's a false characterization. A lot of conservative positions give a damn about say, hunger or healthcare. They just don't give a damn about the policies proposed by the left. Often times, I agree with them when I peer under the hood. Classic example is climate change and green new deal, which had a bunch of stuff totally unrelated and unneeded for climate change. Same with poverty trap[0] - a lot of conservatives argue that our welfare programs are actually hurting the poor and there are good logical arguments backing them. Another example, look at housing affordability - conservative approach (Texas) beats progressive approach (California) by miles. [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Negro_Family:_The_Case_For_National_Action https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Negro_Family:_The_Case_For...
    - MisterBastahrd 4y ago
      Texas has a lot more available housing because Texas is full of people who are looking to get rich off of land investments made by their ancestors. Very few conservatives give a damn about hunger or healthcare. Their solutions are almost invariably non-governmental entities tied to coercive religious indoctrination. Anyone can go on youtube and pull up hundreds of instances of conservative lawmakers arguing against school breakfast and lunch programs for poor children, as if "personal responsibility" has fuck-all to do with the ability of a CHILD to concentrate in class on an empty stomach. Hell, Milton Friedman believed that public schools should be abolished as an indirect method to resegregate the school system.
- lazyasciiart 4y ago
  No, in fact, right wingers are pretty consistently unwilling to actually treat women who have abortions as murderers. They don't support the death penalty for them, they consistently agree that it doesn't count if the pregnancy is a result of rape or incest, and (male or female) they consistently participate in it themselves. Say what you want about right wingers: if they actually were all so morally bankrupt that they would commit murder at the rates they commit abortion, we'd have fallen into civil war long ago.

dawnerd 4y ago

Abortion isn’t the issue. The issue is people trying to control what other people do with their own bodies.

nomel 4y ago
Then, by definition, it's an issue.
Beaver117 4y ago
No it seems like an abortion issue to me. You don't see the same advocates for drug use, prostitution, or assisted suicide
- lazyasciiart 4y ago
  You kind of do, actually.
HopenHeyHi 4y ago
Doesn't the government/strangers have a right to control your body sometimes? Like forcing you to wear a mask or get vaccinated?
- voisin 4y ago
  Well this is the debate. Where does that right stem from? What are its limits?
  - HopenHeyHi 4y ago
    Yeah, it used to be the debate. Now it is "ban what I want or else you are bad" and "I can't believe you banned something I care about!" :/
fzvqq 4y ago
[flagged]

t-writescode 4y ago

For as long as: * people try to get rid of it * it's gotten rid of, people wanting to get it back

cirrus3 4y ago

Until a bunch of old dudes die off.

krapp 4y ago
You underestimate how many right-wing, pro-life young dudes are out there.
- rayiner 4y ago
  Don’t forget all the pro life young women: https://news.gallup.com/poll/235646/men-women-generally-hold-similar-abortion-attitudes.aspx https://news.gallup.com/poll/235646/men-women-generally-hold.... About 20% of both men and women have opposed abortion in all circumstances going back to 1979. Also, on the right, it’s women that drive the anti-abortion movement: https://www.npr.org/2019/06/08/730898408/republican-women-and-abortion https://www.npr.org/2019/06/08/730898408/republican-women-an... (“But what's interesting, Scott, is that Republican women express more opposition to abortion than Republican men - 68% of Republican women call themselves pro-life compared to 59% of their male counterparts. Also, Republican women were the only group in this poll to oppose exceptions for abortion in cases of rape and incest. A majority opposed that, while most Republican men do support those exceptions.”)
rayiner 4y ago
A “bunch of old dudes” were the ones who decided Roe. Abortion views haven’t really changed since then: https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2011/07/01/137079714/poll-generation-y-supports-gay-marriage-but-is-divided-on-abortion https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2011/07/01/1370797... (“But a new poll out today finds that abortion is not one of the issues on which the children are more liberal than their parents.”). There was a bump in pro-choice sentiment after Dobbs but we will see if that is durable. The public opinion on abortion has been remarkably stable over decades: https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/fact-sheet/public-opinion-on-abortion/ https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/fact-sheet/public-opini...
HopenHeyHi 4y ago
Ah, well see, by that time you'll have a new batch. :P

threeseed 4y ago

There's an opinion piece from NYT [1] about this. That 64% of Americans support some form of abortion but 63% of Republicans do not. And so states that are purple or red-leaning will see a no-tolerance abortion position being a requirement to make it through the Republican primary. But that long term it will erode the popularity of Republicans across the country. [1] https://www.nytimes.com/2023/04/07/opinion/abortion-rights-wisconsin-elections-republicans.html https://www.nytimes.com/2023/04/07/opinion/abortion-rights-w...

akvadrako 4y ago
You're missing the nuance here. A large majority (over 80%) of Americans support some restrictions on abortion too, which is not something you often see Democrat politicians advocating. It's basically a Democrat primary litmus test that one supports few or no abortion restrictions, which won't help them win general elections.
- RestlessMind 4y ago
  > which is not something you often see Democrat politicians advocating. Correct because that is not an election issue yet. A smart move by republicans would be to propose a 15-week limit with exceptions for certain cases, similar to what Graham was proposing. And herein lies the asymmetry - democrats were defending abortion until Dobbs so they naturally had to moderate their tone. republicans were trying to repeal it and hence their tone was aggressively anti-abortion. Now that the tables are turned, it is far easier to paint republicans as extremist just by citing their recent statements or recent votes (some were totally idiotic, like banning abortion in all cases without any exceptions). It will be a painful few years until republicans restructure their coalition and tone down their messaging.