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> US has plenty of issues on the world stage (and as an American, at home too) - but centrally, we can be held accountable (and often are, esp. if you can get t

> US has plenty of issues on the world stage (and as an American, at home too) - but centrally, we can be held accountable (and often are, esp. if you can get the US public opinion on your side). Were George W. Bush and Tony Blair held accountable for lying about WMD and launching an illegal war of aggression against Iraq? Was anyone in the Bush administration held accountable for ordering torture of detainees, and was anyone at the CIA held responsible not only for engaging in torture, but then destroying evidence? There are more than just "issues" with the US on the world stage, and virtually no one is ever held accountable for them. > You have zero recourse with China ... there is zero - and I mean zero - way to appeal to any authority for intervention. This isn't true. Public pressure actually plays a large role in how the Chinese government acts. You do not have the same recourse to the legal system, but the government cannot simply ignore what people by and large think. It is incredibly sensitive about maintaining popular support.

no_wizard 4y ago
Yes, they were. Not immediately, but in many ways that may feel foreign to non US citizens, it happens at the polls, in the electorate, the way the government handles itself going forward, new policies and ideas etc. Obama was elected in no small part due to outsized opposition to policies of the previous administration. Practicing democracy isn't always fast nor is it perfect, but it does work. The question of what to do once we realized we needed to reverse course is up for debate, but yes, things changed, people lost their positions, power, and there are reforms and accountability - the CIA is subject to more congressional oversight, for example. They're banned from using blacksites and the CIA is no longer allowed to hold foreign nationals for extended periods without representation. There's this weird thing about how the US waged two wars too, in regards to the rules of engagement. There were 100% bad actors, and many (unfortunately not all) were held by military and civilian court for war crimes, re: blackwater contractors, the case of Pvt 1st Class Andrew Holmes etc. The US military has official rules of engagement for treating people humanely - which are in fact expected to be followed - and people were held accountable for not doing so. Not perfect mind you - but yeah, there were huge changes as these revelations came to light. International relations can be bizarre, and again, I'm no apologist, we shouldn't have even invaded in the first place, but do you think the Russian soliders in the Ukraine will be held internally accountable for war crimes? Do you think the Chinese would? Do you think they are held accountable in any way for other types of crimes, like foreign bribery, corruption, supporting human rights abuses? Can you even freely appeal to the Chinese population?
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- DiogenesKynikos 4y ago
  > Yes, they were. No one went to prison. Bush served out two terms (the first one unelected, but that's an entirely different question). The US occupied Iraq for 9 years. If this is the "accountability" you're touting, it's frankly pathetic. > Practicing democracy isn't always fast nor is it perfect, but it does work. That's a major understatement, in the case of the US. The US killed hundreds of thousands of people in Iraq, in an illegal war of aggression, justified to the public on the basis of outright lies, with the complicity of much of the established media. > the CIA is subject to more congressional oversight, for example The CIA, on orders from the Bush administration, carried out a global torture program, in which it kidnapped people off the street, including in Europe, and smuggled them off to black sites for torture. The Obama administration decided not to prosecute anyone. In Obama's words, "We tortured some folks," but we have to leave the past behind us. When there was eventually a Senate investigation, the CIA spied on the Senators involved. When that came to light, the CIA apologized, but no one in a position of responsibility faced any serious consequences. The same goes for when the CIA destroyed evidence of torture - no consequences. > They're banned from using blacksites and the CIA is no longer allowed to hold foreign nationals for extended periods without representation That's very reassuring. I'm sure the CIA has mended its ways and is now staffed and led by boyscouts. They wouldn't do anything like, say, plan to assassinate or kidnap Julian Assange out of an embassy in London.
  - no_wizard 4y ago
    I'm not sure you're really presenting a good faith discussion of issues and the complex nuances that underpin them. What, exactly, makes China a better partner than the US then? What makes them a global thought leader in any respect? Is it stealing technological secrets from supposed allies? The fact you can't hold the Chinese government accountable in any way what so ever (please demonstrate a single instance where a foreign entity could do so) And this just by passes the lack of understanding you may have for our democratic process and reforms in practice, judging from how you may think noone was held accountable for what happened in Iraq and Afghanistan (this just isn't true, heads rolled. No, not everyone served a tribunal or trial, but that isn't the only form of justice, and yes, people did go to prison) I'll also throw you this: I'd love to see Bush serve jail time for those two wars. I'd also love to se Jinping serves time for the genocide of the Uyghurs. I'd also love to know if you can go to the middle of Beijing and shout from the rooftops that he should be tried for the genocide of the Uyghurs and see how it goes
afterburner 4y ago
> Were George W. Bush and Tony Blair held accountable for lying about WMD and launching an illegal war of aggression against Iraq? Yes, they (and their political parties) lost power in elections a few years later. Try that in China.
- Phlarp 4y ago
  George Bush was reelected for a second term and didn't leave office until he was unable to run for it again. He was reelected because of his role in foreign interventions not in spite of them.
  - afterburner 4y ago
    The Republican party was run out of the Presidency, Senate, and House in 2008. Xi looks like he'll be dictator for life. And the people didn't elect him.
- l3mure 4y ago
  The notion that losing an election is "accountability" for mass murder and the deliberate demolition of an entire state is genuinely deranged. Accountability would be Bush, Cheney, Bremer, Tenet, et al getting the Mussolini treatment in the middle of Baghdad, anything less is a farce.
  - afterburner 4y ago
    Democracy offers more accountability (at the very least removal from power) than any authoritarian regime. And it does so automatically every few years.

no_wizard 4y ago

Yes, they were. Not immediately, but in many ways that may feel foreign to non US citizens, it happens at the polls, in the electorate, the way the government handles itself going forward, new policies and ideas etc. Obama was elected in no small part due to outsized opposition to policies of the previous administration. Practicing democracy isn't always fast nor is it perfect, but it does work. The question of what to do once we realized we needed to reverse course is up for debate, but yes, things changed, people lost their positions, power, and there are reforms and accountability - the CIA is subject to more congressional oversight, for example. They're banned from using blacksites and the CIA is no longer allowed to hold foreign nationals for extended periods without representation. There's this weird thing about how the US waged two wars too, in regards to the rules of engagement. There were 100% bad actors, and many (unfortunately not all) were held by military and civilian court for war crimes, re: blackwater contractors, the case of Pvt 1st Class Andrew Holmes etc. The US military has official rules of engagement for treating people humanely - which are in fact expected to be followed - and people were held accountable for not doing so. Not perfect mind you - but yeah, there were huge changes as these revelations came to light. International relations can be bizarre, and again, I'm no apologist, we shouldn't have even invaded in the first place, but do you think the Russian soliders in the Ukraine will be held internally accountable for war crimes? Do you think the Chinese would? Do you think they are held accountable in any way for other types of crimes, like foreign bribery, corruption, supporting human rights abuses? Can you even freely appeal to the Chinese population?

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
DiogenesKynikos 4y ago
> Yes, they were. No one went to prison. Bush served out two terms (the first one unelected, but that's an entirely different question). The US occupied Iraq for 9 years. If this is the "accountability" you're touting, it's frankly pathetic. > Practicing democracy isn't always fast nor is it perfect, but it does work. That's a major understatement, in the case of the US. The US killed hundreds of thousands of people in Iraq, in an illegal war of aggression, justified to the public on the basis of outright lies, with the complicity of much of the established media. > the CIA is subject to more congressional oversight, for example The CIA, on orders from the Bush administration, carried out a global torture program, in which it kidnapped people off the street, including in Europe, and smuggled them off to black sites for torture. The Obama administration decided not to prosecute anyone. In Obama's words, "We tortured some folks," but we have to leave the past behind us. When there was eventually a Senate investigation, the CIA spied on the Senators involved. When that came to light, the CIA apologized, but no one in a position of responsibility faced any serious consequences. The same goes for when the CIA destroyed evidence of torture - no consequences. > They're banned from using blacksites and the CIA is no longer allowed to hold foreign nationals for extended periods without representation That's very reassuring. I'm sure the CIA has mended its ways and is now staffed and led by boyscouts. They wouldn't do anything like, say, plan to assassinate or kidnap Julian Assange out of an embassy in London.
- no_wizard 4y ago
  I'm not sure you're really presenting a good faith discussion of issues and the complex nuances that underpin them. What, exactly, makes China a better partner than the US then? What makes them a global thought leader in any respect? Is it stealing technological secrets from supposed allies? The fact you can't hold the Chinese government accountable in any way what so ever (please demonstrate a single instance where a foreign entity could do so) And this just by passes the lack of understanding you may have for our democratic process and reforms in practice, judging from how you may think noone was held accountable for what happened in Iraq and Afghanistan (this just isn't true, heads rolled. No, not everyone served a tribunal or trial, but that isn't the only form of justice, and yes, people did go to prison) I'll also throw you this: I'd love to see Bush serve jail time for those two wars. I'd also love to se Jinping serves time for the genocide of the Uyghurs. I'd also love to know if you can go to the middle of Beijing and shout from the rooftops that he should be tried for the genocide of the Uyghurs and see how it goes

afterburner 4y ago

> Were George W. Bush and Tony Blair held accountable for lying about WMD and launching an illegal war of aggression against Iraq? Yes, they (and their political parties) lost power in elections a few years later. Try that in China.

Phlarp 4y ago
George Bush was reelected for a second term and didn't leave office until he was unable to run for it again. He was reelected because of his role in foreign interventions not in spite of them.
- afterburner 4y ago
  The Republican party was run out of the Presidency, Senate, and House in 2008. Xi looks like he'll be dictator for life. And the people didn't elect him.
l3mure 4y ago
The notion that losing an election is "accountability" for mass murder and the deliberate demolition of an entire state is genuinely deranged. Accountability would be Bush, Cheney, Bremer, Tenet, et al getting the Mussolini treatment in the middle of Baghdad, anything less is a farce.
- afterburner 4y ago
  Democracy offers more accountability (at the very least removal from power) than any authoritarian regime. And it does so automatically every few years.