4 ms·

International trade and investment are not remotely comparable to the system of global military and monetary dominance led by Washington. China is a huge and in

International trade and investment are not remotely comparable to the system of global military and monetary dominance led by Washington. China is a huge and influential civilization-state, but it is not (yet) an empire.

no_wizard 4y ago
Important to remember this is often on behalf of willing member states, re: NATO, the military pacts that span through Southeast Asia (there are many). The US official policy (and they do follow this) is that nations reserve the right to ask us to leave, too, and yet, few do. We don't always get it right, but I don't think the Chinese are interested in global peace keeping even on the surface. Its much more "winner take all". I think that does speak to a real difference.
- pphysch 4y ago
  I don't even know to respond to the assertion that China is more irresponsibility militaristic than USA. Based on which facts?
  - no_wizard 4y ago
    its not that simple either. I readily acknowledge our misadventures. We're a complex nation, same as any other, with real costs and unfortunately many ruined lives at home and abroad. I'm not pleading ignorance, there are aspects of "American Exceptionalism" that are problematic and indefensible. I never (as many Americans) supported invading Afghanistan or Iraq. The CIA should have never messed around in many countries, (including but not limited to Iran, Cuba and Argentina) I also want to recognize that I can freely talk about this publicly, openly, and take to the streets with protests against such things, without fear the government will lock me up in a labor camp or "disappear" people (re: Jack Ma). Its foolish to think that just because we've made mistakes that we don't have real advantages on the world stage that may still be far preferable to some alternatives, for starters. Nuance is required here, no? Its important to evaluate all aspects of what you're dealing with.
    - pphysch 4y ago
      > Its foolish to think that just because we've made mistakes that we don't have real advantages on the world stage that may still be fair preferable to some alternatives, for starters. Please embellish. What does USA do that offsets its constant warmongering and economic coercion, and how can you possibly know that outside of blind faith?
      - no_wizard 4y ago
        This wasn't what I said, not even in spirit, so if you have a specific redress I'm open to it, but so far you're throwing empty statements the wall
      - JorikTheBird 4y ago
        So you don't believe in Chinese economic coercion?
    - l3mure 4y ago
      > I also want to recognize that I can freely talk about this publicly, openly, and take to the streets with protests against such things, without fear the government will lock me up in a labor camp or "disappear" people (re: Jack Ma). It's because those protests are almost totally impotent and actually reinforce state power. The protests against the Iraq war were some of the largest in history and achieved precisely squat. When there is some seed of real potential, like the Floyd protests, everything you're saying doesn't happen absolutely can and does. https://abcnews.go.com/US/body-cam-footage-shows-minneapolis-police-allegedly-hunting/story?id=80434010 https://abcnews.go.com/US/body-cam-footage-shows-minneapolis... https://www.npr.org/2020/07/17/892277592/federal-officers-use-unmarked-vehicles-to-grab-protesters-in-portland https://www.npr.org/2020/07/17/892277592/federal-officers-us... https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/sep/02/police-shootings-less-lethal-eye-vision https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/sep/02/police-shoot...
      - JorikTheBird 4y ago
        [flagged]
hammock 4y ago
China's massive military spending and rapid modernization of its armed forces has made it a formidable military power in the world. The country's nuclear arsenal, advanced missile technology, and expanding naval capabilities have given it a significant military advantage in the Asia-Pacific region and beyond. Additionally, China has been expanding its presence and influence through strategic investments and development initiatives like the Belt and Road Initiative, which aims to create a network of infrastructure and trade routes across Asia, Africa, and Europe. This expansionist strategy has allowed China to increase its economic and political influence globally, and some experts argue that it reflects an imperialist mindset
- 4gotunameagain 4y ago
  Yes, but they do not have military bases sprinkled all over the world like the US does.
  - hammock 4y ago
    They have police stations all over the world instead. Different strategy https://www.cnn.com/2022/12/04/world/china-overseas-police-stations-intl-cmd/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2022/12/04/world/china-overseas-police-s...
- pphysch 4y ago
  [flagged]
  - hammock 4y ago
    Military power is not just about the number of bases. The simplest example is cyber warfare, where China has invested heavily and is arguably the world's most formidable power in that area
    - KRAKRISMOTT 4y ago
      Scale isn't the same as capability though, and cyber talent isn't exactly hard to find, just ask the Israelis (or maybe HN readers can do a bit of navel gazing). It's not fair to compare script kiddie levels tools like ransomware and cryptominer bots in the same breath as the toys from NSO group and Stuxnet. If we are counting cyber warfare capability by quantity of malware released, I would expect Africa to become a cyber "power" too in the next decade or so, because they have a large somewhat educated population and no good opportunities. I don't think most HN software engineering folks realize how easy it is to train script kiddies. Most of the big "cybersecurity" consultancies (yes even the big IPOed ones) are primarily staffed by people who basically went through a bootcamp and gained a few certifications. Corporate "security" especially is more about checklists and compliance. You are not getting any real talent like the ICs' blogs that get posted here on HN. The typical staff at cybersecurity companies won't be able to subvert broken branch predictors and post networking stacks exploits on twitter. Those sort of low level application security engineers are a lot rarer and more expensive. Many of the "cybersecurity" companies provide script kiddies and consultants without a STEM background. Forget about fizzbuzz, they are closer to McKinsey than Accenture.
milesskorpen 4y ago
China sure acts in an imperialist manner in Tibet, parts of Kashmir, Xinjiang, perhaps Inner Mongolia and the SCS + has obvious designs on Taiwan. I think you could characterize their activities in Sri Lanka has imperialist overtones too.
- pphysch 4y ago
  [flagged]
  - steve76 4y ago
    [dead]
  - TulliusCicero 4y ago
    Genocide denial isn't a great look, chief. China is guilty of Uyghur genocide. They just depend on people engaging in wishful thinking or spaghetti logic to explain how reeducation camps and mass sterilization of a populace doesn't count.
    - pphysch 4y ago
      [flagged]
      - TulliusCicero 4y ago
        > Lowering birthrates This is a nice way of covering up enforced sterilization and contraception, which is absolutely genocide. Like, it's literally getting rid of a people, by making them physically incapable of reproducing: https://apnews.com/article/ap-top-news-international-news-weekend-reads-china-health-269b3de1af34e17c1941a514f78d764c https://apnews.com/article/ap-top-news-international-news-we... > The state regularly subjects minority women to pregnancy checks, and forces intrauterine devices, sterilization and even abortion on hundreds of thousands, the interviews and data show. Even while the use of IUDs and sterilization has fallen nationwide, it is rising sharply in Xinjiang. If it was just a matter of making IUD's or other contraceptives available, obviously that would be fine. But what's happening is forcing them across the Uyghurs, and that's genocide.
JorikTheBird 4y ago
The US is also not an empire.

no_wizard 4y ago

Important to remember this is often on behalf of willing member states, re: NATO, the military pacts that span through Southeast Asia (there are many). The US official policy (and they do follow this) is that nations reserve the right to ask us to leave, too, and yet, few do. We don't always get it right, but I don't think the Chinese are interested in global peace keeping even on the surface. Its much more "winner take all". I think that does speak to a real difference.

pphysch 4y ago
I don't even know to respond to the assertion that China is more irresponsibility militaristic than USA. Based on which facts?
- no_wizard 4y ago
  its not that simple either. I readily acknowledge our misadventures. We're a complex nation, same as any other, with real costs and unfortunately many ruined lives at home and abroad. I'm not pleading ignorance, there are aspects of "American Exceptionalism" that are problematic and indefensible. I never (as many Americans) supported invading Afghanistan or Iraq. The CIA should have never messed around in many countries, (including but not limited to Iran, Cuba and Argentina) I also want to recognize that I can freely talk about this publicly, openly, and take to the streets with protests against such things, without fear the government will lock me up in a labor camp or "disappear" people (re: Jack Ma). Its foolish to think that just because we've made mistakes that we don't have real advantages on the world stage that may still be far preferable to some alternatives, for starters. Nuance is required here, no? Its important to evaluate all aspects of what you're dealing with.
  - pphysch 4y ago
    > Its foolish to think that just because we've made mistakes that we don't have real advantages on the world stage that may still be fair preferable to some alternatives, for starters. Please embellish. What does USA do that offsets its constant warmongering and economic coercion, and how can you possibly know that outside of blind faith?
    - no_wizard 4y ago
      This wasn't what I said, not even in spirit, so if you have a specific redress I'm open to it, but so far you're throwing empty statements the wall
    - JorikTheBird 4y ago
      So you don't believe in Chinese economic coercion?
  - l3mure 4y ago
    > I also want to recognize that I can freely talk about this publicly, openly, and take to the streets with protests against such things, without fear the government will lock me up in a labor camp or "disappear" people (re: Jack Ma). It's because those protests are almost totally impotent and actually reinforce state power. The protests against the Iraq war were some of the largest in history and achieved precisely squat. When there is some seed of real potential, like the Floyd protests, everything you're saying doesn't happen absolutely can and does. https://abcnews.go.com/US/body-cam-footage-shows-minneapolis-police-allegedly-hunting/story?id=80434010 https://abcnews.go.com/US/body-cam-footage-shows-minneapolis... https://www.npr.org/2020/07/17/892277592/federal-officers-use-unmarked-vehicles-to-grab-protesters-in-portland https://www.npr.org/2020/07/17/892277592/federal-officers-us... https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/sep/02/police-shootings-less-lethal-eye-vision https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/sep/02/police-shoot...
    - JorikTheBird 4y ago
      [flagged]

hammock 4y ago

China's massive military spending and rapid modernization of its armed forces has made it a formidable military power in the world. The country's nuclear arsenal, advanced missile technology, and expanding naval capabilities have given it a significant military advantage in the Asia-Pacific region and beyond. Additionally, China has been expanding its presence and influence through strategic investments and development initiatives like the Belt and Road Initiative, which aims to create a network of infrastructure and trade routes across Asia, Africa, and Europe. This expansionist strategy has allowed China to increase its economic and political influence globally, and some experts argue that it reflects an imperialist mindset

4gotunameagain 4y ago
Yes, but they do not have military bases sprinkled all over the world like the US does.
- hammock 4y ago
  They have police stations all over the world instead. Different strategy https://www.cnn.com/2022/12/04/world/china-overseas-police-stations-intl-cmd/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2022/12/04/world/china-overseas-police-s...
pphysch 4y ago
[flagged]
- hammock 4y ago
  Military power is not just about the number of bases. The simplest example is cyber warfare, where China has invested heavily and is arguably the world's most formidable power in that area
  - KRAKRISMOTT 4y ago
    Scale isn't the same as capability though, and cyber talent isn't exactly hard to find, just ask the Israelis (or maybe HN readers can do a bit of navel gazing). It's not fair to compare script kiddie levels tools like ransomware and cryptominer bots in the same breath as the toys from NSO group and Stuxnet. If we are counting cyber warfare capability by quantity of malware released, I would expect Africa to become a cyber "power" too in the next decade or so, because they have a large somewhat educated population and no good opportunities. I don't think most HN software engineering folks realize how easy it is to train script kiddies. Most of the big "cybersecurity" consultancies (yes even the big IPOed ones) are primarily staffed by people who basically went through a bootcamp and gained a few certifications. Corporate "security" especially is more about checklists and compliance. You are not getting any real talent like the ICs' blogs that get posted here on HN. The typical staff at cybersecurity companies won't be able to subvert broken branch predictors and post networking stacks exploits on twitter. Those sort of low level application security engineers are a lot rarer and more expensive. Many of the "cybersecurity" companies provide script kiddies and consultants without a STEM background. Forget about fizzbuzz, they are closer to McKinsey than Accenture.

milesskorpen 4y ago

China sure acts in an imperialist manner in Tibet, parts of Kashmir, Xinjiang, perhaps Inner Mongolia and the SCS + has obvious designs on Taiwan. I think you could characterize their activities in Sri Lanka has imperialist overtones too.

pphysch 4y ago
[flagged]
- steve76 4y ago
  [dead]
- TulliusCicero 4y ago
  Genocide denial isn't a great look, chief. China is guilty of Uyghur genocide. They just depend on people engaging in wishful thinking or spaghetti logic to explain how reeducation camps and mass sterilization of a populace doesn't count.
  - pphysch 4y ago
    [flagged]
    - TulliusCicero 4y ago
      > Lowering birthrates This is a nice way of covering up enforced sterilization and contraception, which is absolutely genocide. Like, it's literally getting rid of a people, by making them physically incapable of reproducing: https://apnews.com/article/ap-top-news-international-news-weekend-reads-china-health-269b3de1af34e17c1941a514f78d764c https://apnews.com/article/ap-top-news-international-news-we... > The state regularly subjects minority women to pregnancy checks, and forces intrauterine devices, sterilization and even abortion on hundreds of thousands, the interviews and data show. Even while the use of IUDs and sterilization has fallen nationwide, it is rising sharply in Xinjiang. If it was just a matter of making IUD's or other contraceptives available, obviously that would be fine. But what's happening is forcing them across the Uyghurs, and that's genocide.

JorikTheBird 4y ago

The US is also not an empire.