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> It sucks, but what can you do? Hire lower-income candidates? The #1 thing I would do if you're doing unpaid internships, is get rid of unpaid internships, w

> It sucks, but what can you do? Hire lower-income candidates? The #1 thing I would do if you're doing unpaid internships, is get rid of unpaid internships, which should be illegal anyway. Unpaid internships mean that you will only get candidates who come from high-income backgrounds, because low-income candidates can't afford to work for free for any significant amount of time. I also won't give money to nonprofits that use unpaid internships. If you won't help the people in your own house, that tells me you aren't fundamentally invested in helping people, and I'd argue that remains true no matter what the mission of your organization is.

stu2b50 4y ago
The subject of the article are internships which pay very well. Big tech internships are usually between $45-50/hr. Some people I know make more money at internships than their entire annual PhD stipend.
- kerkeslager 4y ago
  Sure, I'm pointing out a separate problem. YCombinator is a startup incubator, so ostensibly a lot of people here aren't in big tech, and startups do often use unpaid interns. Programmers might not have the full impression of this, because programming internships are usually paid in my experience, even at small startups. But lots of internships in (for example) marketing or administration/HR are unpaid.
- wombatpm 4y ago
  Well, the stipend is traditionally shit, but the graduate programs like to remind you about the generous tuition waiver. STEM students are so lucky. I have no idea how humanities students justify their situation to themselves.
Kalium 4y ago
"Big tech" internships are almost always paid, so the good news here is that they're well ahead of you. With that said, the answer of hire lower-income candidates isn't particularly actionable if I'm a manager bringing on interns. What am I supposed to do, ask them if they're income-challenged and hire them if they say yes? The story is tragic, painful, and heartbreaking to read. My heart and empathy go out to these struggling and ambitious people. Yet none of those make this an easy problem to solve.
- kerkeslager 4y ago
  > With that said, the answer of hire lower-income candidates isn't particularly actionable if I'm a manager bringing on interns. What am I supposed to do, ask them if they're income-challenged and hire them if they say yes? Yes. Obviously that's not the only question you ask them: you still want to hire someone with the ability to perform the job. > Yet none of those make this an easy problem to solve. Big tech is well known for only being interested in solving easy problems, which are the only problems worth solving. /s
  - Kalium 4y ago
    If you find a way to set that up that doesn't run flagrantly afoul of anti-discrimination laws, I think a lot of people would be very interested.
    - kerkeslager 4y ago
      I'm not a lawyer so I don't know what laws might apply here. Can you explain what you're talking about? As far as I can tell, high-income people aren't a protected class anywhere in the US. There are many state laws preventing you from asking salary histories[1], but that's not everywhere, and where such laws exist, companies are already using loopholes to discriminate against low-income candidates. Many of these laws only say that you aren't allowed to use income history to determine pay: you're welcome to filter candidates by income history if your pay is stated up front. Even under the most strict conditions, you could specify that certain positions are intended as an aid program for lower-income applicants (as defined by an income range) and it would take a special kind of douchebag to apply for such a position if they weren't low-income, even without you verifying their income. This strikes me as possibly the best solution anyway, because sometimes income doesn't tell the whole story: someone with prior high income might have massive medical debt, for example which decreases their effective income. [1] https://www.paycor.com/resource-center/articles/states-with-salary-history-bans/ https://www.paycor.com/resource-center/articles/states-with-...
      - Kalium 4y ago

stu2b50 4y ago

The subject of the article are internships which pay very well. Big tech internships are usually between $45-50/hr. Some people I know make more money at internships than their entire annual PhD stipend.

kerkeslager 4y ago
Sure, I'm pointing out a separate problem. YCombinator is a startup incubator, so ostensibly a lot of people here aren't in big tech, and startups do often use unpaid interns. Programmers might not have the full impression of this, because programming internships are usually paid in my experience, even at small startups. But lots of internships in (for example) marketing or administration/HR are unpaid.
wombatpm 4y ago
Well, the stipend is traditionally shit, but the graduate programs like to remind you about the generous tuition waiver. STEM students are so lucky. I have no idea how humanities students justify their situation to themselves.

Kalium 4y ago

"Big tech" internships are almost always paid, so the good news here is that they're well ahead of you. With that said, the answer of hire lower-income candidates isn't particularly actionable if I'm a manager bringing on interns. What am I supposed to do, ask them if they're income-challenged and hire them if they say yes? The story is tragic, painful, and heartbreaking to read. My heart and empathy go out to these struggling and ambitious people. Yet none of those make this an easy problem to solve.

kerkeslager 4y ago
> With that said, the answer of hire lower-income candidates isn't particularly actionable if I'm a manager bringing on interns. What am I supposed to do, ask them if they're income-challenged and hire them if they say yes? Yes. Obviously that's not the only question you ask them: you still want to hire someone with the ability to perform the job. > Yet none of those make this an easy problem to solve. Big tech is well known for only being interested in solving easy problems, which are the only problems worth solving. /s
- Kalium 4y ago
  If you find a way to set that up that doesn't run flagrantly afoul of anti-discrimination laws, I think a lot of people would be very interested.
  - kerkeslager 4y ago
    I'm not a lawyer so I don't know what laws might apply here. Can you explain what you're talking about? As far as I can tell, high-income people aren't a protected class anywhere in the US. There are many state laws preventing you from asking salary histories[1], but that's not everywhere, and where such laws exist, companies are already using loopholes to discriminate against low-income candidates. Many of these laws only say that you aren't allowed to use income history to determine pay: you're welcome to filter candidates by income history if your pay is stated up front. Even under the most strict conditions, you could specify that certain positions are intended as an aid program for lower-income applicants (as defined by an income range) and it would take a special kind of douchebag to apply for such a position if they weren't low-income, even without you verifying their income. This strikes me as possibly the best solution anyway, because sometimes income doesn't tell the whole story: someone with prior high income might have massive medical debt, for example which decreases their effective income. [1] https://www.paycor.com/resource-center/articles/states-with-salary-history-bans/ https://www.paycor.com/resource-center/articles/states-with-...
    - Kalium 4y ago