5 ms·

It sucks, but what can you do? Wealthy peers do have their advantages, but that's the case in almost every field out there. This is not unique to tech.

cscurmudgeon 4y ago
Yep, would love to see a comparison to journalism internships at places like NYT.
- ericmay 4y ago
  What do you hypothesize that this would uncover?
  - cscurmudgeon 4y ago
    If this is a tech specific issue.m It is also a logical and scientific question to ask and NYT should support that.
    - ericmay 4y ago
      > It is also a logical and scientific question to ask and NYT should support that. Do they not support asking this question? > If this is a tech specific issue Are you saying it’s an issue across all industries? Or?
      - cscurmudgeon 4y ago
        > Do they not support asking this question? Who tf knows? Have they published an article on it? > Are you saying it’s an issue across all industries? Or? I am not saying anything about that. All I am saying is this: For a fair and logical/scientific comparison, the article should have included other rich and powerful industries that folks want to work in, but I guess NYT doesn't believe in fairness.
- kerkeslager 4y ago
  Just because the NYT does the wrong thing, doesn't make it right for us to do. Stop pointing the finger at other people and take responsibility for your own actions.
  - cscurmudgeon 4y ago
    The NYT started pointing fingers and not taking actions. Please stop the easy moralizing.
    - kerkeslager 4y ago
      "They started it"? That's your defense? What grade are we in? Believe it or not, both you and the New York Times can both be doing the wrong thing.
      - cscurmudgeon 4y ago
        > What grade are we in? Wait, if you can't argue logically or decently, just say so. It is understandable to get angry when confronted with logic. > Believe it or not, both you and the New York Times can both be doing the wrong thing. I am not the king of Tech. Here let me spell it out in an easy-to-digest manner: If in other privileged industries rate of hiring poor folks is lower than that of tech, tech is actually doing good and not wrong. Is that clear? You assume tech is in the wrong automatically without rationally analyzing it. The way to rationally analyze it is to compare with other rich industries. Once again, we should stop moral aggrandizing and argue scientifically.
        kerkeslager 4y ago
        Excuse me, I did misunderstand you. Let's try this again: "What they are doing is worse"? That's your defense? What grade are we in? Believe it or not, the New York Times can both be doing something worse than you, and you can still be doing the wrong thing. The goal here is "treat people fairly" not "treat people less unfairly than somebody else so you can feel superior". > I am not the king of Tech. Just the defender of Tech.
lantry 4y ago
what can we do? maybe we could try to reduce wealth inequality, instead of just shrugging our shoulders.
- ausbah 4y ago
  yeah it's not like we don't know the majority root causes for most of society ills. being poor just perpetuates throughout every other part of a persons life in really nasty feedback loops. criminal justice, health, income, opportunities for advancement, etc.
owlglass 4y ago
You're right, we should just let inequality fester and wealth disparity grow. I'm glad that early doctors and engineers working on difficult problems didn't just shrug their shoulders while saying "what can you do?"
kerkeslager 4y ago
> It sucks, but what can you do? Hire lower-income candidates? The #1 thing I would do if you're doing unpaid internships, is get rid of unpaid internships, which should be illegal anyway. Unpaid internships mean that you will only get candidates who come from high-income backgrounds, because low-income candidates can't afford to work for free for any significant amount of time. I also won't give money to nonprofits that use unpaid internships. If you won't help the people in your own house, that tells me you aren't fundamentally invested in helping people, and I'd argue that remains true no matter what the mission of your organization is.
- stu2b50 4y ago
  The subject of the article are internships which pay very well. Big tech internships are usually between $45-50/hr. Some people I know make more money at internships than their entire annual PhD stipend.
  - kerkeslager 4y ago
    Sure, I'm pointing out a separate problem. YCombinator is a startup incubator, so ostensibly a lot of people here aren't in big tech, and startups do often use unpaid interns. Programmers might not have the full impression of this, because programming internships are usually paid in my experience, even at small startups. But lots of internships in (for example) marketing or administration/HR are unpaid.
  - wombatpm 4y ago
    Well, the stipend is traditionally shit, but the graduate programs like to remind you about the generous tuition waiver. STEM students are so lucky. I have no idea how humanities students justify their situation to themselves.
- Kalium 4y ago
  "Big tech" internships are almost always paid, so the good news here is that they're well ahead of you. With that said, the answer of hire lower-income candidates isn't particularly actionable if I'm a manager bringing on interns. What am I supposed to do, ask them if they're income-challenged and hire them if they say yes? The story is tragic, painful, and heartbreaking to read. My heart and empathy go out to these struggling and ambitious people. Yet none of those make this an easy problem to solve.
throwmeaway1212 4y ago
Business can :- - ...sure they focus university reach out programs/recruitment teams on less wealthy universities. - ...start 'apprenticeship' type programs to specifically target groups less represented in their current recruiting pipeline. - ...ensure their current hiring practices don't have biases that might contribute more to this.

cscurmudgeon 4y ago

Yep, would love to see a comparison to journalism internships at places like NYT.

ericmay 4y ago
What do you hypothesize that this would uncover?
- cscurmudgeon 4y ago
  If this is a tech specific issue.m It is also a logical and scientific question to ask and NYT should support that.
  - ericmay 4y ago
    > It is also a logical and scientific question to ask and NYT should support that. Do they not support asking this question? > If this is a tech specific issue Are you saying it’s an issue across all industries? Or?
    - cscurmudgeon 4y ago
      > Do they not support asking this question? Who tf knows? Have they published an article on it? > Are you saying it’s an issue across all industries? Or? I am not saying anything about that. All I am saying is this: For a fair and logical/scientific comparison, the article should have included other rich and powerful industries that folks want to work in, but I guess NYT doesn't believe in fairness.
kerkeslager 4y ago
Just because the NYT does the wrong thing, doesn't make it right for us to do. Stop pointing the finger at other people and take responsibility for your own actions.
- cscurmudgeon 4y ago
  The NYT started pointing fingers and not taking actions. Please stop the easy moralizing.
  - kerkeslager 4y ago
    "They started it"? That's your defense? What grade are we in? Believe it or not, both you and the New York Times can both be doing the wrong thing.
    - cscurmudgeon 4y ago
      > What grade are we in? Wait, if you can't argue logically or decently, just say so. It is understandable to get angry when confronted with logic. > Believe it or not, both you and the New York Times can both be doing the wrong thing. I am not the king of Tech. Here let me spell it out in an easy-to-digest manner: If in other privileged industries rate of hiring poor folks is lower than that of tech, tech is actually doing good and not wrong. Is that clear? You assume tech is in the wrong automatically without rationally analyzing it. The way to rationally analyze it is to compare with other rich industries. Once again, we should stop moral aggrandizing and argue scientifically.
      - kerkeslager 4y ago
        Excuse me, I did misunderstand you. Let's try this again: "What they are doing is worse"? That's your defense? What grade are we in? Believe it or not, the New York Times can both be doing something worse than you, and you can still be doing the wrong thing. The goal here is "treat people fairly" not "treat people less unfairly than somebody else so you can feel superior". > I am not the king of Tech. Just the defender of Tech.

lantry 4y ago

what can we do? maybe we could try to reduce wealth inequality, instead of just shrugging our shoulders.

ausbah 4y ago
yeah it's not like we don't know the majority root causes for most of society ills. being poor just perpetuates throughout every other part of a persons life in really nasty feedback loops. criminal justice, health, income, opportunities for advancement, etc.

owlglass 4y ago

You're right, we should just let inequality fester and wealth disparity grow. I'm glad that early doctors and engineers working on difficult problems didn't just shrug their shoulders while saying "what can you do?"

kerkeslager 4y ago

> It sucks, but what can you do? Hire lower-income candidates? The #1 thing I would do if you're doing unpaid internships, is get rid of unpaid internships, which should be illegal anyway. Unpaid internships mean that you will only get candidates who come from high-income backgrounds, because low-income candidates can't afford to work for free for any significant amount of time. I also won't give money to nonprofits that use unpaid internships. If you won't help the people in your own house, that tells me you aren't fundamentally invested in helping people, and I'd argue that remains true no matter what the mission of your organization is.

stu2b50 4y ago
The subject of the article are internships which pay very well. Big tech internships are usually between $45-50/hr. Some people I know make more money at internships than their entire annual PhD stipend.
- kerkeslager 4y ago
  Sure, I'm pointing out a separate problem. YCombinator is a startup incubator, so ostensibly a lot of people here aren't in big tech, and startups do often use unpaid interns. Programmers might not have the full impression of this, because programming internships are usually paid in my experience, even at small startups. But lots of internships in (for example) marketing or administration/HR are unpaid.
- wombatpm 4y ago
  Well, the stipend is traditionally shit, but the graduate programs like to remind you about the generous tuition waiver. STEM students are so lucky. I have no idea how humanities students justify their situation to themselves.
Kalium 4y ago
"Big tech" internships are almost always paid, so the good news here is that they're well ahead of you. With that said, the answer of hire lower-income candidates isn't particularly actionable if I'm a manager bringing on interns. What am I supposed to do, ask them if they're income-challenged and hire them if they say yes? The story is tragic, painful, and heartbreaking to read. My heart and empathy go out to these struggling and ambitious people. Yet none of those make this an easy problem to solve.

throwmeaway1212 4y ago

Business can :- - ...sure they focus university reach out programs/recruitment teams on less wealthy universities. - ...start 'apprenticeship' type programs to specifically target groups less represented in their current recruiting pipeline. - ...ensure their current hiring practices don't have biases that might contribute more to this.